The Rational Apologist

Where is the body? Why not show it and kill the Christian movement on day one? If there was no tomb to begin with. Why did they suffer and die for nothing? Why suffer and die for a lie they made up?

But I agree many Christian's 'approach' to get/presch into the unbeliever is... Debatible, and feels that lacks Love (which is All in Christian framework) and has much of 'superiority feel' to the unbeliever(which is a terrible sign for a christian). For those kind of 'Christians' I ask forgiveness for them. And truly wish you a happy and restful sunday!

The snake argument that you are making, confuses taking a text seriously with taking every sentence literally. In everyday speech, we say things like “I’m dying of hunger,” “criticism rained down,” or “I have a million things to do.” None of those statements is literally true, yet their meaning is perfectly clear. The Bible also uses metaphor, poetry, hyperbole, symbolism, and culturally familiar language. So when it speaks of a burning bush or a serpent, the first question should be about the genre and purpose of the passage, not whether every detail must be read with rigid literalism. Rejecting Christianity because some biblical language may be symbolic would be like rejecting ordinary human communication because not every sentence is a scientific description.

When you actually break Atheism down... It's clearly one of the most absurd, illogical, and ridiculous positions to hold.

@etAJohansson @AgainstAtheismX Natural laws are invisible and rule the created universe tho

@AgainstAtheismX Calling atheism “absurd” while believing an invisible, supernatural being created the universe, answers prayers and suspends the laws of nature is a strange criticism. Calling atheism an illogical position while relying on faith in supernatural claims is quite the irony.

If a Judge, does not judge with justice (when most of the times is tough as justice demands), And leaves evilness unpunished. Then that judge is not just. If the Judge is not Just, that means it is not perfect as it has a contradiction. If he has a contradiction and it is not perfect due to it. Then the Judge is not God. God can not be unjust and leave evilness unpunished and have sny contradictions. Did you even read Noah's story? Only Noah was a just and good person left on earth. The judge was judging as a judge should. ----- The time on sheol/hades (you call it purgatory but that's not quite correct) Most people understand it as an sleep. So the Just/person wouldnt have to 'wait' from the moment he dies (let's say 3000bc) until Jesus sacrificied himself. It is quite probably it's just like a moment for the person. -- God did not condemed humanity to such scenario of afterlife without Him and heaven. It was us on Eden that decided to rebel and eat the tree of knowledge of good and bad, annnndd We started deciding what is Good or Bad acording to our views(this is the original sin and literally the topic of the thread). So basicly wanting to be God. As only God has a saying on Good or Bad. Thankfully God himself sacrificied himself to pay for our transgresions. Why did He do that? Because He is just and the justice. If God 'rewarded' evil creatures with heaven without punishment. He would not be Just. Therefore He would not be perfect, Therefore He would'nt be God. The sacrifice is the perfect balance between Love, Mercy and Justice. As it is done because of Love For the Perfect Justice. With the Mercy to his beloved sons. Blessings GatoSalvaje! May you have a great upcoming week!

@gdudgdhdhehdh @Bronymon_ We’re talking about the same god that flooded the world to rid it of nasty sinful people and condemned humanity to an afterlife of purgatory until Jesus sacrificed himself, he aint exactly the most merciful morally righteous deity in existence and he sure is petty.

This extreme hypothetical has done wonders in revealing who understands philosophy and who does not. It also has revealed a lot of people lack basic reading comprehension.

@Ivan98Mario @BathBombToastr @Bronymon_ God does not define morality. God is the morality (goodness) itself. All objetive morality comes/takes from God's own scence of who He is. Which is being the virtue Good himself.

@BathBombToastr @Bronymon_ Then may I ask under what judgement or criteria does god define morality? Are moral actions moral because god says they are? Or does god preach those actions because he knows them to be moral?

I always talked about madness tho. Who says we can't do that? But we can not affirm as we do not know all. 2. No, you are free to do whatever you want. And you'll get whatever you want. Love or not Love. But if you are asking if those are the only options. Yes, they are. You either choose Good or Evil, Life or Death, Happiness or Suffering, Love or Hatred. God or not God. Why you get that? Because all the 'positive' feelings and virtues are God himself. If you deny him, as you can, you get the opposite of those virtues and feelings. Why? Because God prescence leaves as requested by the person. And with the prescence leaving, his quality do as well and only the opposite remains. As requested by the unbeliever.

@RatioApologist @TheHistoryGuy07 1. Just a few tweets ago you were talking about how that person (who maximally loves himself) will logically act Now all of a sudden we can't do that? 2. So a choice of love him vs hell isnt coertion??

The answer is quite simple. If you have irretrievably rejected God, would you want to be in His presence for eternity? Probably not. It would be sheer agony for you to be in His presence, thus God gives you what you want, eternal separation from Him. Hell is having a choice.

1. Do you know? We have not experienced the eternal and that kind of madness. Which would corrupt any kind of logic in the person. Heaven is wanting to be in communion eternally in love with God. The idea of just 'peace and happiness' is real but something that comes from the fact that you have communion with God . 2: Because of Justice and Love and respect for the free will. If He 'forced' you to love Him(and go to heaven). That would not be love, as thst would be coertion.and programming. And would mean to not respect your free will (which is a Pilard in going to heaven or hell). And Justice as evil can not go unpunished of course. Both can, and are, be true. Idk why you think it must be one or the other tbh. Have a blessed rest of the day zack.

@RatioApologist @TheHistoryGuy07 1. Does someone who loves himself want to be subjected to eternal torture? No right? Wouldn't that mean that he doesnt want BOTH heaven and hell? 2. Im confused, i thought you said God puts people in hell because of justice? Why would their personal choice matter?

1. That's because I am not the truth and do not have it all. I do not know all exactly and perfectly, as it makes sense. Therefore I give you a theory that does not have have contradictions and that could be a pausible scenario, or not. Someone who loves himself above all. Will want to love continue loving himself. So simple logic. Would someone, who love himself above all, want to stop loving himself? No. Does cease to exist allows to stop loving yourself? Yes. And that's just without introducing madness, which will occur. Actually many theologiams believe Hell will probably get to a point that the person will probably won't know himself or understand much that is happening. This makes sense as God is the Logos himself (order, logic, purpose, structure, mind) and when the person denies the Logos. Probably will get something of the sort. But still theology is not affirming like a madness. Are theories that make sense and have no contradicctions on the christian framework (or other religions). 2. No. He is right but he is just abording the free will + love + peace virtue because just with those 2, you get the third which is justice. What is God? Truth, Life, Love, Justice, Will, Peace etc. in this case thehistoryguy07 is focusing on Love,Will, Peace. Not mentioning Justice as it is not needed for the small argument. But the Justice is there, as God is Justice itself. In thehistory and in the reality or doctrinal view. We can decide to choose Heaven(God) and Hell(sins). But the question is. Why can we decide? If we are cursed and can not (literally) have communion with God, because of sin. Because God sacrifice Himself on the cross paying the price and feeling hell Himself for us. Why did the creator of all, King of the universe and everything, decided to sacrifice himself and take all the blame for something He did not do? Love and Justice. Love because He does for his beloved creatures. Justice because He must do it in order to save his beloved creatues and justify the Justice (that He is), and not run on contradiction (as He cant because if He had contradiction He wouldn't be God) and leave evil unpunish. In historyguy point, he already skiped this part (justice one) as it is implicit on the idea that We can actually choose instead of only our deserved punishment.

@RatioApologist @TheHistoryGuy07 1. how does that answer the question? 2. cool so you agree that thehistoryguy07's explanation is wrong then?

I am not saying "Its this or that'. I lean towards the eternal punishment (although I am open to explore other ideas). But to me, logically, makes sense that a being that rejects forever: Happiness, Love, Fidelity, Joy, Justice, Peace, Truth, Basically, reject God withoutknowing. For me makes sense that gets eternally what they asked for. As God loves so muchs, He is willing to put aside what He desires (Eterna love communion) for the decision his creature decided. And He does exactly that. And when God, and all his qualities, leave. Only the bad opposite gets left. Suffer, Madness, Death, Lies, Hate, Sadness, etc etc And that is Hell and his suffering. God knows before the person will say something. If they want Him or not after all. Perhaps God will send the person eternally to a path for redemtion and the eternal suffering(the path) 'stops' right there (when that person finally, after multiples universes, gets saved by himself). But that's just theory theory thoery based on imagination pretty much. And in reality It makes sense a fixed will for good as the full eternal theory puts on the table in my honest opinion.

@RatioApologist @zackpogi1234 @TheHistoryGuy07 So you mean the only punishment god give them that is to enter hell and maybe a finite suffering and after that they will by themselves eternally reject god ? But that means they somehow can commit themselves to continue to reject god eternally. How can finite human do it ?

Of course all its speculative for the first point but: 1. Someone who loves himself above all. Would never stop wanting to 'Be' 'Him'. Because being destroyed would mean stop loving himself. We do not know what kind of torture Hell is. We can suppose due to being the opposite of God himself, which is quite scary, but perhaps in their madness(as they will go mad) they want to continue to love themself (therefore continue to exist). 2: It is about Justice above all, but Jesus (The holy Son) already paid the price for the Justice with his sacrifice. Therefore I move to the part that we can participate. Decide to love or not to love Him. Its not about desiring to go to Heaven or believing he just intellectually exist. It's about: if the person wants, or not, an eternal relationship of Love with God, Love himself. But in order for that, the person must become perfect, as a Perfect God can not be with unperfect(sinned) beings. And we are make/become perfect through the sacrifice of the Holy Son.

@RatioApologist @TheHistoryGuy07 1. Don't people that truly loves themselves also wouldnt want to suffer in eternal agony? Again your whole logic can be applied the other way 2. If its about justice then its not about 'choosing to not go to heaven' at all right?

Classical Christianity doesn't argue that God needs infinite time to "pay back" finite sins. Rather, hell is eternal because it is the irreversible state of a creature who has definitively rejected the infinite God, the only source of life. The punishment is eternal because the separation is eternal, not because justice is still accumulating. Also the person on Hell the person will probably(theory) keep on sinning eternally as the Good is left and nothing left is there besides evilness. You could say in our limited mind. That a person choosing God and Heaven, will eternally do Good in the creation/universe. And one that chooses Evilness eternally (rejecting God) will continue to do evil on his very own self eternally and pay the due at the same time. In simple terms. People that go to Hell. Eternally reject God as that is their eternal desire (as they eternally wish to be God).

@RatioApologist @zackpogi1234 @TheHistoryGuy07 I just want to learn more about this. Do they have explanation why the sin needs to pay by suffering and pay in eternal time? It also fine if it because god are just so what he decides are just as well but I wonder if there are elaborate on that.

The Human is a creature that continues to keep changing all the time. Many atheist have said many times 'I won't ever believe' and then, they did. And of course many said it, and never believed. I truly hope you are not one of the persons that 'burn eternally' because of this 'worldview'. But that's out of my scope and free will rules. What I can say is this: I understand the feeling and logic behind not believing in God. I studied it in order to test if this God existed or not. And I've got beaten to be honest by the evidence for Him. I pray and wish the best to you Mike! But if you ever want to explore more ideas, like this. I am more than open and not with religious text or dogma. Clues from all the fields of the studies/science that point to Him. The moral argument you mention of 'humanity creating through reason and emotions' is valid. I was there too. But then I looked in history to see where this moral bloomed. And it points to the Old testament (as one of the most advanced and modern in terms of dignity during that era). 'Love your neighbor'. 'Treat the foreign as your own kind as you were foreign before on Egypt'. Slave was pretty much a job contract between hebrews. And even the foreign slaves had ways to be free. All of this was revolutionary in comparasion to the other cultures of that era. Nothing like it. What the idea of the OT had during those times. And of course to Christ. 'Forgive 70 times 7 times' 'Give the other cheeck' 'Love your enemy' 'Live and sacrifice yourself for the other' 'Give all for the other as God gave all for you' And Christianity philosofy has the philosophycal key that stopped slave globally. Galatians 3:28: "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. " As we are made on the image of God (Genesis 1) we are all equally worth it and share the same dignity. You wont find moral higher than OT during those times/era and specially Jesus teaching as they literally shocked the world upside down. As we were in a sociaty that upheld strenght above all in every situation. Have a great Life, with full of Joy and Happiness Mike. I truly wish that! And who knows where this world might lead us.

@RatioApologist @TheHistoryGuy07 I don’t think any gods exist, so I can’t love a god in that way, and I also figure out what’s good or bad using empathy and reasoning in relation to human flourishing, not what people say what other people say their god said. So I guess I’ll burn for eternity under your worldview

If its eternal suffering (as we do not know but most christianity thinks it is like that). God sustains it in order to justify the Justice He is. As God can not left evil unpunished in any way. Because if He did. He wouldn't be a Good Judge. And if He is not a Good Judge. Then that means he has contradictions. And If He has contradictions then He is not perfect. And If He is not Perfect. Then He is not God. It is also possible that once the payment is all due paid. Maybe he gives another chance and sends to another multiverse/dimension (super speculatice) as Jesus stated the person will be there until all their injustice to be paid. Or maybe He destroys it. Or Maybe He destroys the one that paid all and desire to stop existing. And the one that still desire to exist, He leaves it there. (as this is very probably as Hell is basically the love to the self). There are many posibilities and Jesus himself said we do not know and it is not our job to know all for now.

@RatioApologist @zackpogi1234 @TheHistoryGuy07 I understand the annihilation soul framework but not eternal suffering since it means people in hell need to existing for eternity as well which means it either come from god actively sustain their existence or their existence itself are eternal so how it had been explained

Sin the opposite of God. Which is Love to the Self by declaring what is 'good' or 'bad' arbitriary(aka trying/wanting to be God). Instead of loving the source of Love and good which is God. That's why the most impportant commandment is: 'Love God with all of what you are' And the second is equally impportant (as Jesus stated): 'Love your neighbor as much you love yourself' Sin is not loving others. By loving one self. How? By declaring what is 'Good' or 'Bad' when we have no saying in those virtues/concepts. --- People go to Hell because they choose to not to love God. And God, in his eternal love, can not force you to love Him. Because if He did. That wouldn't be love or free will. People go to Hell just by saying to God during their lifetime: 'I do not want/love you. And I do not want to do anything with you' Gods repects the free will and sends the person to the the place God himself won't be pretty much present. Hell, but in reality they are sent to themself (you being in you alone). The place where you are fully allone forever and ever without the source of Joy, Happiness, Love, Fidelity. That is God. Because people reject God. And they do not understand God is the Happiness, Joy, Life, Love, Goodness HIMSELF. When you reject all of that. You get the opposite which is the suffering that is left after all the 'pleasent good feelings' abandom the person. As those 'pleasent good feelings' are God himself

@RatioApologist @TheHistoryGuy07 So your hell lacks a choice, and you don’t go there for lack of belief, but for actively loving sin. So I guess the big question is defining sin and seeing if you love it or not, define sin.

I do not understand. Are you a mormon or secular? +99% of christianity believes Jesus is YHWH of the old testment. Christian will say: there are many clues that point to Jesus on OT. Jews will say: Nothing points to him. Secular will say: All fiction through emotions. The debate can be giving of why Jesus is God. And even using or not using the bible at all. 'Quick' strongest point for Jesus being God: -OT pointing to Him with hundreds of prophecies and strong paralelism with proto evangelic ideas. -His body missing and Disciples acting. Why his discilple got to suffer and died for a Lie they knew it'd be a lie(as they made it) and got nothing in return besides suffering and death? -Shroud of Turin: Most studied object ever in history up to this day. Completely unexplained how an image of a crucified man is present with these caracteristics: Negative photograph, 3D information, AB Blood, only on the first 0.02nm of the fiber printed, No paint, dye, brush of any kind. Newer studies point to 1st century linen as well. And even to this day. If Humanity would want to forge it. We can't. We literally do not know how to do it and we do not have the neccesary energy (aprox 34 trillion watts of power). -Cosmos reacts to his birth: As stated on mathew there was a bright star that the 3 wise men(Zoroastrianism priest/astronomers) followed. This event occured and we can calculate it with astro software and newtons equations. On 3 B.C Jupiter(The supreme king in all old astrology) crowns 3 times the star Regulus (The little King/prince) on Leo(Lion of Judea) area. While this Jupiter enters Venus(Mother/fertility) around 9 months On Leo and when it finishes it. Jupiter 'merges/fuses' with Venus on Leo and the Sun points to them while the earth has the perfect angle to see a super bright star from surface. Traducction to old astrology lenguage: "The Supreme King enthrones/crowns the little King over the region of Leo" "The Supreme King and the Mother of Fertility child the newborn King over the region of Leo and announces to the world" This 'bright star of Belen' (Jupiter + Venus + Sun) happened on 2B.C 17th of June alligning perfectly with all of the evangelics records of Jesus birth and remaining history events during that era. -Cosmic reacts to his death: It is confirmed by Nasa that a blood red moon eclipse occurred on April 3 33AD (The day Jesus died on the cross) matching Joel OT prophecy. It is mentioned on pagan(roman/greek records) that a great darkness was present during that time (as debated by roman autorithies and priests while debating of Christ and the eclipse). I'll post just one quote: Phlegon of Tralles (c. AD 140), Greek historian under Rome: “In the 4th year of the 202nd Olympiad [AD 32July/33July], there was the greatest eclipse of the sun… and an earthquake.” (preserved by Africanus and Eusebius) matching perfectly the evangelics records of an Earthquake and darkness at Jesus crucifiction. -Temple of Jerusalem reacting to Christ or his movement: It is mentioned on the Talmud (books of Jews) that 40years prior the destruction of the temple. During the time of minister of Jesus and crucifiction. The temple stopped working and doing wonders: .The lot for the Lord no longer came up in the High Priest's right hand during the Yom Kippur ritual. .The scarlet thread no longer turned white, a traditional sign that atonement had been accepted. .The western lamp of the menorah no longer remained continuously lit as it had before. .The doors of the Temple opened by themselves. The talmud even mentions Jesus(Yeshua) and says he deceived the Jew people by doing sorcery (acknowledging he had power, aka miracles). And there is much more( As the destruction of the temple of Jerusalem and the wonders/miracles recorded by both Jew and Roman historians) But this is character limit. If you maneged to get to here. Thanks a lot for your time! And May our God, JesusChrist, bless you. May you have a life full of Happiness!

The real question then is: is he the only god, or just the one that became the prominent god for the past 5,000 years? There’s strong evidence the NT god and OT god are different beings altogether, and Christians need to use the OT god in order to have a basis for their NT god. You can see this in how different the character is between the god of the OT and the god of the NT. That’s something the Mormons have over the rest of the Christian demons. At least they say the OT god was Jesus, and the NT god is his father. The Mormons may have a billion other contradictions but at least they got one of the big ones covered. Their explanation at least can explain the difference in character continuity between those epochs.

Hell is the permenant eternal choice of the person to Reject God and his eternal comunnion of Love. If you or anyone have been sent to hell already. That means the choice by the person has eternally been made. Jesus Himself said. It is not a matter of 'believe yes or no'. As many person saw people being resurrected or cleansed by their sins, and still did not decide to follow. You must follow and accept his Kingdom (and all that comes by it) not just 'believe intelectually he Exist' And in order to be on heaven. One must be perfect as the Father in heaven. People that are on hell, means they are there because they love sin. And you can not(impossible) to go to heaven if you love sin. As God that is perfect. Can not have communion with any creature that has any level of sin. Only the perfectness can go to heaven and that means hating sin. Something people that go to Hell clearly do not hate.

@TheHistoryGuy07 I don’t believe god exists, and if I find myself after death in hell being tortured, that’s pretty good evidence that a god does exist, I’d instantly become a believer and make a choice not to be there. If hell is a choice then hell is empty…

We do not know. It is possible as Jesus let that thought present: Mathew 3:18: "And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." But it is possible that it is eternal. As Hell is the opposite of Loving God. Therefore Hell is love to the self to its maximum possible. And people that truly loves themfelf to the max. Probably would not want to cease to exist. Also God justice can not go undone (because if it did. He would not be God as he would not be Justice therefore he wouldn't be Perfect). Thankfully God made a plan for free will, Love, Mercy and Justice. And that is the sacrifice of the Holy Son on the cross. Where The love, justice, mercy and free will, all act together for us. God can not ignore Justice. That's why God had to take that wrath of Justice to himself to allow us to be eternally with him, the source of Joy, happiness, love, justice etc. If... We want it, never if we do not want it. As He loves so much, He let us decides to us if we want to be with him eternally, or the opposite. And that opposite is Hell which bring suffer as the person leaves the source of Joy, happiness, love, justice, fidelity... Etc.. That all of that are/is God.

@TheHistoryGuy07 Why not just make the soul not exist anymore? Instead of spending eternity in some place? I mean your whole logic can be applied to hell too: "would atheists want to be in hell for eternity? Probably not. It wouldbe sheer agony for them to be in hell..."

@DanielD431nr @TraductorTeAma Yo vivo por el Señor. Pero el decidira obviamente

@RatioApologist @TraductorTeAma Derechito al abismo vas ir eres muy ciego 🦯

- Con la muerte qué crees que pasa? - Se te apaga la tele y chau. Fin.

@DanielD431nr @TraductorTeAma Eso solo lo puede definir Dios tambien

@RatioApologist @TraductorTeAma Creo que sos pelotudo

@DanielD431nr @TraductorTeAma Cierto pero solo Dios sabe quien entrara o no. No tu ni yo.

@RatioApologist @TraductorTeAma No todo el que me dice: 'Señor, Señor', entrará en el reino de los cielos, sino el que hace la voluntad de mi Padre".