Dr. Michael J. Svigel

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@god_came_down But it’s also partial.

Page 28, paragraph 1 , Conclusion , Fathers of the Future, By Dr. Michael J. Svigel “ In this paper, I argued that Irenaeus held to a future Tribulation period in which the church will endure persecution (Haer. 5.26.1; 5.35.1). He also asserted that the church would be caught up prior to the Tribulation (5.29.1). Further, he taught that at the end of the Tribulation, those saints who survive the persecution of the Antichrist will enter the kingdom in their mortal bodies and repopulate the world (5.35.1), which will be ruled over by resurrected saints (5:35.1). Reading Irenaeus’s eschatological expectations in light of the eschatological teachings of the Shepherd of Hermas (Vis. 2, 3, 4), I suggest the best solution to this conundrum is that Irenaeus held to something like a partial pre-tribulation rapture of the “spiritual” or “repentant” Christians, while the “double-minded” or “carnal” will be left to endure the purifying fires of the Tribulation.” The events and sequence of events match PreWrath eschatology perfectly. 1️⃣Revelation 6:1-15 “Birth pains” God’s Permissible Will for suffering, purification of faith to ready the BOC , similar to Job. Prelude to Rapture and wrath. 2️⃣Revelation 7 , Pause to Protect and Rapture Prior to Wrath. 3️⃣God’s Prescribed Will for Wrath at the 6th and 7th Seals commences in Revelation 8. This could mean that the PreWrath view is the oldest detailed eschatological view documented and held by any early church theologian.

Theology 301: What was Irenaeus of Lyons' actual view of the rapture (assumption) of the church? It's probably not what you think, not what you believe, and will likely make few people happy...but history is what it was, and it can't be changed. fathersonthefuture.com/__static/a2d93…

@wordsofthislife This is not only possible, but probable. But the writings we have are from pastors/teachers who were influential in their circles, so we can be sure that at least some/many held the same views.

@Svigel Not sure if this is apropos but could it be that we may never know what the mass of believers of that era believed because they did not have the means to write or if they did it was not preserved. The writings which are preserved may only give a slice. Is this possible?

@patristic_typos It's all in the article.

@Svigel Can you give a couple citations where Irenaeus discussed his view of the rapture?

Theology 101: Party politics is a poor substitute for personal piety.

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The AItheist 2.0: a novella (The AItheist Cycle) a.co/d/0gge7Iou #Amazon via @Amazon

Theology 101: Too many pastors confuse brutal lambasting with bold leadership.

Theology 101: Any “gospel” that fails to confess Jesus as the incarnate God-Man is a gospel about nobody that accomplishes nothing.

@Paul_Campbell6 Someone didn’t read or understand the essay apparently, because this is precisely what is addressed in it. Since all these questions are literally addressed in the paper, I’m not going to address them here.

The text: "And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, ‘There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be.’ For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome, they are crowned with incorruption." (5.29.1) When attending to the text, doesn't it suggest endurance rather than escape? Isn't this position further supported by other portions of his work: The Antichrist will "put the Church to flight" before being destroyed at the Lord's coming (5.26.1). The resurrection of the just occurs "after the coming of Antichrist" (5.35.1). Believers should prepare to recognize and avoid the Antichrist when he comes (5.30.3–4). Are we to attend to the text in a vacuum or take it as a whole?

THEOLOGY 101 QUIZ: The first person to teach Daniel’s 70th week is future, and the second half would be dominated by a literal Antichrist in fulfillment of Rev 13 and 2 Thess 2, followed by a Millennium with resurrected saints ruling and tribulation survivors having children was:

@Paul_Campbell6 I think the close analysis of the original Greek and Latin texts of 5.29 answers that. Attend to the text.

@Svigel Thank you for the resource, @Svigel Are we properly interpreting what Ireneaus wrote, or are we attempting to resolve tension between what he wrote and current theological systems through speculation?

Theology 101: Some people who never thank God for good things in their lives are the first to blame him for the bad.

@Paul_Campbell6 fathersonthefuture.com/__static/21478…

"Now I have shown a short time ago that the church is the seed of Abraham; and for this reason, that we may know that He who in the New Testament raises up from the stones children unto Abraham, is He who will gather, according to the Old Testament, those that shall be saved from all the nations..." (5.34.1).

@Paul_Campbell6 This might be a little academic (presented at an academic conference session on patristics), but… fathersonthefuture.com/__static/a2d93…

However, Irenaeus expected the Church to face Antichrist and tribulation, with resurrection/translation following or connected to that period—not a secret pre-trib rapture: The Antichrist will "put the Church to flight" before being destroyed at the Lord's coming (5.26.1). The resurrection of the just occurs "after the coming of Antichrist" (5.35.1). Believers should prepare to recognize and avoid the Antichrist when he comes (5.30.3–4). Also, today, wouldn't some refer to Irenaeus as a supersessionist?

Theology 101: In a paper, a student suggested that weekly Communion could cut down the time spent on bad sermons and bad music. Hmm. Not the usual case made for frequent Communion, but…hmm.

@MiddleBrownie PS. Wikipedia is not a dependable source. It isn’t primary or secondary and barely tertiary.

@Svigel Could you share documentation to this effect please?

@MiddleBrownie fathersonthefuture.com

@god_came_down This might be a little academic (presented at an academic conference session on patristics), but… fathersonthefuture.com/__static/a2d93…

Irenaeus saw farther and sooner with more clarity. ✅Irenaeus was certainly PreWrath. He mentioned these events in PreWrath order. PRETRIBLATIONISTS ONLY QUOTE PART OF IRENAEUS‼️ 1️⃣Apostasy -Revelation 3:18 2️⃣Tribulation- Revelation 6 3️⃣Purification- Rev.3:18 and 6:9-11 4️⃣Prepared for the Banquet-Rev.7:9-17 / RAPTURE ✅ HERE IS WHAT PRETRIBS LEAVE OUT‼️ ✅PROOF REVELATION 6 IS PURIFICATION OF THE APOSTATE CHURCH BEFORE THE RAPTURE IN 7:9. The text immediately preceding Book V, Chapter 29, Section 1 in *Against Heresies* is the conclusion of Chapter 28, Section 4: > “And therefore throughout all time, man, having been moulded at the beginning by the hands of God, that is, of the Son and of the Spirit, is made after the image and likeness of God: the chaff, indeed, which is the 1️⃣apostasy, being cast away; but the ✅wheat, that is, those who bring forth ✅fruit to God in ✅faith, being gathered into the barn. And for this cause 2️⃣👉tribulation is 👉necessary for those ❤️who are 👉saved, that having been after a manner 👉broken up, and rendered 👉fine, and sprinkled over by the 👉patience of the Word of God, and set on 🔥fire🔥3️⃣✅[for purification], 👉they may be 4️⃣✅fitted for the royal 4️⃣✅banquet. ✅As a certain man of ours said, when he was condemned to the wild beasts because of his testimony with respect to God: ✅I am the wheat of Christ, and am ✅ground by the teeth of the wild beasts, ✅that I may be found the ✅pure bread of God.” PreTribulationism cannot justifiably make such a claim to Irenaeus when reading ALL he said.