TJ

@oaedoel @aDissentient It's not "cheaper than normal." It's a time of use tariff that reflects the half-hourly variations in energy costs whereby customers achieve a lower effective rate. There is no subsidy at all—just better pricing and smarter use of the energy system.

@ToTheOctocopter @aDissentient if it is cheaper electricity than normal, then someone is funding the difference. That's a subsidy. Words do indeed mean something.

1. This is implying that a gas boiler is 85% efficient. This is much less than modern boilers achieve. 2. The ratio of electricity to gas prices is currently 4.6, implying that Octopus heat pumps don't in fact deliver operating gains. 3. The capital cost of heat pumps is high, so Octopus heat pumps are not economically rational.

@2still_learning @DiscePuer @aDissentient

@DiscePuer @ToTheOctocopter @aDissentient Game set & match No response 👍

@DiscePuer @aDissentient 2.5 is not a viable basis of comparison for the reasons listed (as acknowledged by the authors of the study). Modern heat pumps deliver efficiency far beyond that irrelevant number. Data from thousands of heat pumps doesn’t lie.

@ToTheOctocopter @aDissentient The switch to flammable R290 is predominantly driven by claims that R410 is a GHG and boiling the planet. Efficiency gains are marginal - roughly 10% - and don't lift SCOPs from DECC's 2.5 median or Catapult's 2.7 to the "Four Times More Efficient" you advertise.

@markfrancisio @g__j @OctopusEnergy Hi Mark. The sound power level for all three Cosy models is available here: octopus.energy/cosy-heat-pump/

@g__j @OctopusEnergy Thank you for releasing the data. Do you have any info on the noise levels these pumps make?

Not a study, not a survey - but the actual live data from every @OctopusEnergy Cosy heat pump installed in real homes is now online. And it shows that over 80% of Cosy heat pumps were cheaper to run than a gas boiler over the last year and delivered a COP of 3.7 over the whole year (about 4.3x more efficient than a gas boiler) There’s so much disinformation from fossil fuel lobbyists on heat pumps - and anecdote based on bad installs or out of date tech - but we hear time and time again how much Octopus customer la love their heat pumps. Cosy heat pumps can run as hot as a boiler (70C+), can often be installed with no radiator changes and no new insulation, work with microbore piping, can often retain your old hot water tank if you have one. But so much more - comfort sensors in up to ten rooms, optional remote support and servicing, software updates to literally make your heating better without a visit. Effortlessly working with smart tariffs to save money. British designed, British manufactured and thousands of great British jobs. Helping insulate Brits from the last gas crisis, this gas crisis and more to come. See the data for yourself: octopus.energy/cosy-heat-pump…

@DiscePuer @aDissentient These problems are listed at length in the study and reflected in the wide standard deviation. The live data on our dashboard is from R290 units with modern controls, properly sized emitters, and full telemetry reporting on flow temperatures and performance. Technology improves.

@DiscePuer @aDissentient The population was largely R410a units, with a significant minority of R407c as well. All without modern controls or optimisation. DECC could not control for proper sizing of the units, nor the emitters, nor for flow temperature settings, nor ensure controls were set up right.

@7Kiwi @aDissentient

@aDissentient And the Octopus heat pump arm loses money.

@oaedoel @aDissentient The Cosy Tariff isn’t subsidising heat pumps. Words mean things.

@aDissentient is this "Cosy" heatpumps require the Octopus Cosy tariff which gives you much cheaper electricity during certain times of day - effectively subsidised.

@DiscePuer @aDissentient Installing newer, better heat pumps. Technology improves. DECC vanished 10 years ago.

@aDissentient What are Octopus doing to lift their SCOP to 3.7 given that the DECC survey of hundreds of real world installations came up with a median SCOP of 2.5 and the Catapult project (which allowed installers to tweak systems throughout) only raised the median to 2.7?

@DpawsonGas @aDissentient You’re right. We get a COP much higher than that. Seems like you’re a bit lost on how heat pumps perform. Fortunately the data is public.

@ToTheOctocopter @aDissentient And same applies to heat pumps. Octopus design at 50° which is rediculusy high for a heat pump install. You cant be getting cop of 2.5 at 50° 😂

@aDissentient Why not ask boiler manufacturers to put their full fleet online so we can do a like for like comparison?

@aDissentient The spark gap falls to 4.3 in April and the effective spark gap for a smart tariff is 3.7 Capital costs are still too high but are plummeting as volume increases. Of course, heat pumps need less servicing so lifetime cost benefits (have you seen the price of boiler cover?!)

@nick_advice @g__j @OctopusEnergy The average savings are shown on the dashboard. 80% are cheaper. Another 6% are at cost parity with a boiler. o 86 out of 100 people are even or money ahead vs. a gas boiler even before the recent gas price shock. 🙂

So 1 out of 5 were not cheaper to run, so that’s a 20% fail rate. That is clearly not what was being promised for years. You dont say how much cheaper than gas, please provide that as well as the install cost of the new HP. By doing that we can determine a payback period. Last time I dug into that, it paid for itself right around the time you’d need to replace the exterior unit.

@Will52773T @g__j @OctopusEnergy That's why we provide the actual savings from real customers, and showed how the real observed COP changed with temperature over 12 months. We don't "average COP" over the year. The Seasonal Performance Factor accounts for temperature and weather changes over 12 months

@g__j @OctopusEnergy COP data doesn't tell us whether a property with a heat pump is comfortably warm. And the COP falls dramatically when external temperatures are around freezing in winter - which is when folk run central heating. Averaging COP over a full year can exaggerate performance.

@Garfytwit @OctopusEnergy @the_geeker When energy is sold for 28p, only ~40% of that price is wholesale cost. The rest is non-energy costs that go to network operators and the government, not profit for energy suppliers.

@OctopusEnergy @the_geeker I export it to you for 0.15p and you sell it to someone without solar for 0.28p. You’re now going to give me 0.12p and continue to sell it for 0.28p a kWh. I guarantee you’ll continue to lower it and lower the export amount whilst import prices go up. Bookmark this.

So @OctopusEnergy have decreased by export by 20%. Peaking up. Standing charge horrendous. So glad the government have saved me £150 /s

@harty2you @llqdave @OctopusEnergy That wasn't for you, mate! That was for Dave.

@ToTheOctocopter @llqdave @OctopusEnergy I'm not fixated TJ ? I have an opinion on here as you do. I spent a few hours at a friend's house recently ( winter ) who chose heat pump heating and scrapped their conventional gas boiler. Honestly, I would say their house was colder IMO

Enough BS (bad science) - here are the facts. 👉 youtu.be/IB-VwVyVTYE

@llqdave @harty2you @OctopusEnergy I think you're confused about what's being show here. You're fixated on 47 while ignoring the boiler's flow is set to 50. If you like, pretend there's no thermal loss from the heat exchanger onward and the flow water is the 50 you're expecting. The point still holds!

@ToTheOctocopter @harty2you @OctopusEnergy I don't have anything against heat pumps, but every time someone tries to convince me that they work, they come up with nonsense like comparing to 47C boilers. There *must* be a reason that this happens, and as I said in the first post, it isn't the way to convince people.

@llqdave @harty2you @OctopusEnergy Hi Dave, what other advice would you like? Happy to give you any. I was just noting that your claim about boiler temperatures was already handily refuted by another poster with cited sources. 🙂

@ToTheOctocopter @harty2you @OctopusEnergy When an @OctopusEnergy heat pump installer acts like this, you have to wonder why Octopus employ him. Surely you should be giving us good advice, not memes? Or don't you actually have any facts to give us?