David T. West

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David T. West

David T. West

@VirRomanus14

Classicist | Homo Humanus Romanus Assoc. Prof. @Ashland_Univ & @AshbrookCenter Teaching Latin, ancient pol. thought, history & epic Writing a book on Cicero

Ashland, OH Katılım Ağustos 2025
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David T. West
David T. West@VirRomanus14·
@newphilologyX Cicero observed that Thucydides's speeches were at times practically incomprehensible: ipsae illae contiones ita multas habent obscuras abditasque sententias vix ut intellegantur
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Livius
Livius@newphilologyX·
Thucydides is difficult in part because he uses basic common Attic words in weird ways. Even the Greeks found Thucydides difficult.
untimely ἐξηγητής@noon_ta_noeta

@eademsententia @newphilologyX Homer is objectively harder than Thucydides. if you know basic Attic it is genuinely hard to find new words in Thuc. for Homer you can know every single word in Iliad 1 and still have to look up 10 words a page in Iliad 2.

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David T. West
David T. West@VirRomanus14·
@apupeepo Ok then I agree with those who said Allen and Greenough, or check out Gildersleeve and Lodge. Also acquire A New Latin Syntax by EC Woodcock.
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David Foster Wallace and Gromit
phuck it im buying smyth and properly learning greek. need to do the same for latin. anyone got any recs?
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Daniel Mendelsohn
Daniel Mendelsohn@DAMendelsohnNYC·
Really? I’d rather translate *both* Homeric epics than one book of Thucy! But then, I’ve always taken the minority position that interesting prose is much harder to translate than poetry is. Prose “style” far trickier to convey, IMHO.
untimely ἐξηγητής@noon_ta_noeta

@eademsententia @newphilologyX Homer is objectively harder than Thucydides. if you know basic Attic it is genuinely hard to find new words in Thuc. for Homer you can know every single word in Iliad 1 and still have to look up 10 words a page in Iliad 2.

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David T. West
David T. West@VirRomanus14·
@DAMendelsohnNYC I'm glad to hear you say this, because I have begun a translation of Livy in which I'm trying to consistently translate Latin terms and to convey his style, and I'm finding it far more difficult than I imagined.
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Daniel Mendelsohn
Daniel Mendelsohn@DAMendelsohnNYC·
@Th_Angelopoulos I think that, far more problematic than her choice for “polytropos”, is that she completely truncates lines 3 and 4; no cities to see , no minds to learn about …
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Thanos Angelopoulos
Thanos Angelopoulos@Th_Angelopoulos·
For everyone who thinks Wilson's “complicated” for Odysseus is bad; here are the opening 10 lines. One rule: translate every highlighted word with a single English word. No phrases. And keep the meter. Off you go. Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον, ὃς μάλα πολλὰ Tell me, Muse, of the manyspun* man, who wandered very much πλάγχθη, ἐπεὶ Τροίης ἱερὸν πτολίεθρον ἔπερσεν· after he sacked the sacred ptoliethron (πτολίεθρον; Homer's own poetic coinage for "city-stronghold"; neither polis nor modern πόλη nor the Latin-borrowed κάστρο Greeks say today; already archaic within antiquity) of Troy. πολλῶν δ᾿ ἀνθρώπων ἴδεν ἄστεα καὶ νόον ἔγνω, He saw the astea (ἄστεα; not merely "cities" but civilised worlds, each with its own order and customs; you are an outsider observing a whole way of life) of many men, and came to know their noon (νόον; mind, character, intention, disposition, the particular way a people think; "mindset" is too corporate, "soul" too religious, "intelligence" too narrow). πολλὰ δ᾿ ὅ γ᾿ ἐν πόντῳ πάθεν ἄλγεα ὃν κατὰ θυμόν, And on the sea he suffered many algea (ἄλγεα; pains and griefs, physical and emotional simultaneously; Greek does not separate the aching body from the aching spirit) in his thumos (θυμόν; the warm beating centre of a person: courage, rage, desire, grief, and thought all housed together; Homeric man does not think separately from feeling; no Cartesian split here). ἀρνύμενος ἥν τε ψυχὴν καὶ νόστον ἑταίρων. striving to secure his own psychē (ψυχή; not yet the immortal soul of philosophy or Christianity, but breath-life, the thing that leaves through the mouth at death; to "save one's psychē" is simply to stay alive) and the nostos (νόστον; homecoming, but carrying the full weight of heroic longing, identity, and restoration; it gives us nostalgia, yet Homer's nostos is not sentiment, it is a warrior's existential purpose) of his companions. ἀλλ᾿ οὐδ᾿ ὣς ἑτάρους ἐρρύσατο, ἱέμενός περ· But not even so did he save his companions, though he was iemenos (ἱέμενός; not merely "eager" or "trying"; this word carries longing in the bones, a striving that is almost physical yearning; he did not just attempt to save them, he ached to). αὐτῶν γὰρ σφετέρῃσιν ἀτασθαλίῃσιν ὄλοντο, for they perished by their own atasthaliēsin (ἀτασθαλίῃσιν; reckless arrogance, moral blindness, the folly of those who know better and do it anyway; closer to hubris than stupidity, more self-destructive than either) νήπιοι, οἳ κατὰ βοῦς Ὑπερίονος Ἠελίοιο the nēpioi (νήπιοι; literally "not-yet-speaking," i.e. infants; used of adults it is contemptuous and pitying at once: children in the face of reality), who devoured the cattle of Helios Hyperion (the Sun as a living, watching, divine presence, not a star; an entity who notices and avenges) ἤσθιον· αὐτὰρ ὁ τοῖσιν ἀφείλετο νόστιμον ἦμαρ. and he stripped from them the νόστιμον ἦμαρ (νόστιμον ἦμαρ, literally "the nostos-day," the day of return; νόστιμον here is nostos as adjective, pressing the full weight of homecoming, longing, and identity onto a single day; "day of return" is the best English can do, and it is not enough). τῶν ἁμόθεν γε, θεά, θύγατερ Διός, εἰπὲ καὶ ἡμῖν. Of these things, goddess, daughter of Zeus; speak to us also, beginning from wherever you will.
Thanos Angelopoulos@Th_Angelopoulos

Roman Helmet Guy is a moron. Here's why: The word is a compound adjective formed by the prefix poly- (from polys, meaning “many”, “multiple”, or “great in number”) + the noun tropos + the adjectival ending -os. Tropos itself derives from the verb trepō (τρέπω), “to turn, to twist, to change direction”. Its IE root trep- carries the core sense of “turning” or “bending”. In Greek, tropos literally means “a turn”, “a twist”, “a way”, “a direction”, or “a path”, and only secondarily “manner”, “character”, “method” or “habit”. Thus the literal etymological force of polytropos is “having many turns” or “of many twistings/ways” aka a single word that fuses multiplicity (poly-) with the idea of deviation, adaptation, and change (tropos). It is not a simple descriptor; it encodes the notion of something that constantly “turns” or “shifts”, whether geographically or mentally. Per the standard reference Liddell-Scott-Jones Greek-English Lexicon, the word carries two intertwined layers of meaning:Literal / physical: “much-turned”, “much-wandering”, “much-traveled”, “roaming widely”. This is precisely how Odysseus is understood in Odyssey 1.1 (“ἄνδρα … πολύτροπον”) and again at 10.330 (Circe addressing him). Metaphorical / characterological: “versatile”, “of many devices”, “resourceful”, “wily”, “shifty”, “adaptable”. Examples: Hermes (Homeric Hymn to Hermes), Plato (Hippias Minor 364e–365a, where he contrasts the “polytropos” Odysseus with the “simple” Achilles), Thucydides (versatility of mind), Plutarch (on Alcibiades). Later texts can shade into “fickle” or “changeable”. The adverb polytropōs simply means “in many ways” or “variously”. In Modern Greek the word survives as a learned term meaning “resourceful,” “inventive,” “intricate,” or “complicated”, with the same double edge. Homer places polytropos in the very first line of the Odyssey (“Ἄνδρα μοι ἔννεπε, Μοῦσα, πολύτροπον…”) precisely because the word is deliberately ambiguous. It invites a double reading that no single English adjective can fully replicate: Literal: the hero who has literally “turned” through countless places; Trojan War, stormy seas, islands, underworld, back to Ithaca. Metaphorical: the hero whose mind and character are full of twists; cunning, shape-shifting, never straightforward, endlessly adaptive. This is not accidental. Homer is announcing a new kind of hero: not the straight-line, uncomplicated warrior (Achilles, “the simplest and most truthful”, in Plato’s words), but the multifaceted, many-layered, non-linear survivor. Polytropos is the ancient Greek way of saying “complicated man”. Emily Wilson’s choice of “complicated” is therefore not a simplification or a betrayal of the Greek; it is a defensible modern English rendering that captures the core etymological and conceptual force of the word. “Complicated” preserves the sense of “many turns”, “not straightforward”, “full of twists”; both in Odysseus’s journey and in his character, while remaining immediately intelligible to contemporary readers. English simply has no single native word that packs the same literal + metaphorical punch as the Greek compound. “Man of many ways,” “versatile,” “wily,” or “of many devices” all require footnotes or sound archaic; “complicated” does the job cleanly. They attack Wilson for choosing “complicated”. Who? Peoople who do not read ancient Greek (and certainly not fluently). They are reacting to a surface-level English word without grasping the layered ambiguity Homer himself built into polytropos. Someone who cannot read the original line, who has never parsed the etymology of tropos, and who has never seen how later Greek authors exploited the same double meaning is simply not in a position to lecture a professional classicist on what the Greek “really” means. Wilson did a good translation. She's is genuinely a good scholar. They, on the other hand, are ποικιλοτρόπως, πολυτρόπως, παντοτρόπως, διαρκώς, και εντελώς αμετατρόπως ηλίθιοι.

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David T. West
David T. West@VirRomanus14·
@DAMendelsohnNYC @Th_Angelopoulos How could Richard Thomas blurb this as "a staggeringly superior translation- true, poetic, lively and readable, and always closely engaged with the original Greek"? Poetic and lively for sure, but an examination of the first four lines alone reveals the falsity of the last claim.
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Alex Priou
Alex Priou@alexpriou·
Reviewer 1: This is an interesting and important contribution to the literature. I recommend its publication with the following minor revisions, mostly concerned with issues of style and clarity. Reviewer 2:
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Litterae Christianae
Litterae Christianae@litteraechristi·
Aegidius Romanus: Latin was a creation of philosophers! | Part II Today we continue our exploration of how medieval thinkers understood the nature of the Latin language. If you haven’t yet read the first part, here is: x.com/litteraechrist… Aegidius (1243–1316), a native of Rome, belonged to the Augustinian tradition. Sent to Paris, he attended the lectures given by Thomas Aquinas at the University of Paris. Later, as a master himself, he became a fervent supporter of Aristotelian philosophy. Around the year 1280, he dedicated his Three Books on the Government of Princes (De regimine principum) to King Philip IV of France. In Book II, while discussing the early education of a ruler, he turns to the learning of foreign languages. He draws a distinction between common speech, what he calls idiomata vulgaria or idiomata laicorum, and Latin, which he terms the idioma litterale. The former, the vernacular, is the language we acquire from infancy, and it clearly varies from region to region: “Nam videmus in idiomatibus vulgaribus, quod raro potest quis debite et distincte proferre aliquod idioma, nisi sit in eo in ipsa infantia assuefactus. Qui enim in aetate perfecta transfert se ad partes longinquas, ubi idiomata differunt a materno, etiam si per multa tempora in partibus illis existat, vix aut nunquam potest recte loqui linguam illam, et an incolis illius terrae semper cognoscitur ipsum fuisse advenam et non fuisse in illis partibus oriundus”. Here it is worth noting that Aegidius clearly recognizes the diversity of languages across regions, and that what we call a “native language” is the one learned from earliest childhood through habitual use among its speakers. This difficulty faced by those attempting to learn a foreign language, he continues, is even greater in the case of Latin, which he calls the idioma litterale et physicum: “Si ergo sic in idiomatibus laicorum, multo magis hoc erit in idiomate litterali, quod est physicum idiomat”. What, then, does he mean by this “literal and physical idiom”? Aegidius was writing in the thirteenth century, a time when vernacular languages served everyday needs, while nearly everything committed to writing was expressed in Latin. Thus, by calling Latin “literal” and “physical,” he seems to mean a language designed for written expression, whereas the vernacular remained largely outside the realm of letters. From this, Aegidius makes clear what he thinks about the nature of Latin: namely, that it was fashioned by philosophers so that they might discuss more serious matters, subjects that vernacular speech, due to its lack of vocabulary, could not adequately express: "Videntes enim philosophi nullum idioma vulgare esse completum et perfectum, per quod perfecte exprimere possent naturas rerum et mores hominum et cursus astrorum et alia de quibus disputare volebant, invenerunt sibi quasi proprium idioma, quod dicitur latinum, vel idioma litterale: quod constituerunt adeo latum et copiosum ut per ipsum possent omnes suos conceptus sufficienter exprimere." From this passage it is clear that Aegidius believed the vernacular to arise from nature, whereas Latin was a product of artifice. Philosophers, he says, realizing that they could not discuss the highest matters in common tongues, “invented”, that is, devised and constructed, a language of their own, rich in vocabulary. The fact that Latin is called a "literal" language does not mean that it was not read and spoken. On the contrary, Latin was actively used in universities and cultural centers and for diplomatic purposes in the Middle Ages. This concerns the nature of the language, that is, its origin. It remains, however, to ask whether this doctrine about the nature of Latin originated with Aegidius himself or was inherited from others. Since he treats the matter only briefly, it seems likely that this view was common in his time. What, then, led him into this error? To understand this, we must consider the historical context. In the thirteenth century, Latin was no longer used as a native, spoken language by any people; everyone spoke their own vernacular. Latin, by contrast, was learned not through everyday use, but through books and teachers. As a result, Aegidius and his contemporaries, seeing that Latin was not acquired naturally but through education, concluded that it was not natural but artificial, that is, invented. Moreover, vernacular speech seemed free from formal rules and structures, whereas Latin was identified with “grammar,” the first of the liberal arts, full of rules and prescriptions, preserved only in written texts. Finally, as we have already noted, the discipline we now call archaeology did not yet exist; thus, little evidence was available to suggest that Latin had once been the everyday language of the Roman people.
Litterae Christianae tweet mediaLitterae Christianae tweet media
Litterae Christianae@litteraechristi

Did the Romans speak Latin? The medieval and humanist controversy. * Part 1. The Latin language, as we find it in the best writers, was the form used by educated people in the city of Rome around the first century BC. It is referred to as Sermo Urbanus, Elegans, Urbanitas, Oratio Romana, or simply Sermo Latinus: (Br. 75, 261; 3 De or. 11, 40–41; Qt. VIII, 1. 3; Var. Ling. Latin. I–III). Other Romans, who lacked formal education and lived especially in the countryside, as well as slaves and foreigners, used a simpler kind of speech. Compared with the urban variety, it was sometimes corrupted by grammatical mistakes (solecisms) and foreign or incorrect forms (barbarisms). This type of speech is called sermo plebeius, vulgaris, or familiar: (3 De or. 37, 150; Qt. VIII, 2, 1; 3, 16; Sen. Controv. III, praef; Gell. XI, XIX, 13). Moreover, this kind of speech could also appear in a somewhat more refined form, namely when it was used by a more educated person in everyday conversation or in private letters. In such contexts, as Marcus Tullius Cicero says, “cotidianis verbis texere solemus” (Cic. Fam. IX, 21). (Cf. Cic. Or. 5, 20; Quintilianus I, 6, 1: “est sua loquentibus observatio, sua scribentibus”.) It should also be noted what Cicero says about rustic and rural expressions: “Rustica vox et agrestis quosdam delectat, quo magis antiquitatem, si ita sonet, eorum sermo retinere videatur” (3. De Or. 11, 42). The closer a given form of speech came to this ideal of urbanity, the purer and more genuinely “Latin” it was considered. The further it departed from that model, the more it was judged corrupt and flawed, and thus labeled “vulgar.” While the urban variety is directly attested in literary works, examples of vulgar speech can be identified either through descriptions by authors or through inscriptions that have survived to our time, most notably those preserved on the walls of Pompeii. From all this, we may confidently conclude the following: there truly was a distinction between “urban speech” and “rustic or vulgar speech.” However, this distinction does not mean that the Romans had two separate languages. Rather, they had one single Latin language, whose proper forms and rules some observed more carefully and others more loosely. This is not difficult to understand, since the same thing happens even in our own time. If someone listens to a judge delivering a formal judgment in court and to an uneducated man speaking in the marketplace, he will clearly notice that both are using the same language. Yet one follows the standards and elegance of proper expression, while the other uses words more freely and with less correctness. In the Middle Ages, however, the difference between the Latin preserved in literature and the everyday spoken language became so great that they came to be regarded as two entirely different languages. Latin was no longer learned at home or through daily use, but through formal study with the help of teachers. As a result, learned men began to form mistaken ideas about the speech of the ancients. They believed that, just as in their own time there were already two languages, one common and domestic (such as French, Italian, Spanish, etc.), and another, Latin (which they also called “Grammatica,” because Grammatica was the name of the first of the liberal arts in the medieval trivium), so too in ancient times the Romans must have had two completely distinct languages: one vulgar, which arose naturally, and another, namely Latin, which was not natural but artificially constructed and devised. This mistaken view, which continued to find supporters and defenders up to the fifteenth century, arose from the fact that those scholars assumed the conditions of their own time to have existed in the age of the ancients as well, as if they were projecting into the past what they saw before their eyes in the present. Moreover, it was not easy for them to think otherwise, since access to the works of ancient authors was becoming increasingly rare: many texts already lay hidden under dust in the libraries of monasteries, while other traces, carved in stone, remained buried beneath the ground. From this situation there arose, among learned men of the Middle Ages, several theories about the Latin language, especially concerning the purpose for which the Romans had devised it. Three principal views emerged: the first that of Aegidius Romanus (Giles of Rome) (1243–1316), a student of Thomas Aquinas at the University of Paris; the second that of Dante Alighieri (1265–1321); and the third that of Francesco Petrarca (1304–1374). In the following post, we will discuss the first theory proposed by Giles of Rome.

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David T. West
David T. West@VirRomanus14·
@litteraechristi But what Giles is right about is the literary character of the medieval--and even the classical--Latin idiom. It is not a language in which people discussed quotidian affairs, as some have pointed out in the debate over the "active" vs. "grammar" pedagogical methods.
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David T. West
David T. West@VirRomanus14·
@litteraechristi Right. So do the clausulae follow classical Latin metrical rules based on vowel length, or are they accent-based?
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Litterae Christianae
Litterae Christianae@litteraechristi·
@VirRomanus14 To give an example, among the clauses used by Cicero, the most frequent is the ending in cretic followed by a spondeum.
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Litterae Christianae
Litterae Christianae@litteraechristi·
The Roman Canon in Latin is a work of art of Christian rhetoric: brevity, rhetorical figures, and classical meter with the depth of Christian doctrine. If recited according to the original meter, it is as pleasant as it is instructive.
Litterae Christianae tweet media
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Litterae Christianae
Litterae Christianae@litteraechristi·
Yes. It is a prose text. However, Latin prose also obeys metrical laws. These are the metrical clauses (clausulae), which are the combination of two metrical feet at the end of a sentence. These feet were carefully chosen to have a sonorous and pleasant cadence at the end of the phrase.
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John Ricard
John Ricard@johnricard·
Today is my last day teaching Latin in a traditional setting. It’s a poignant inflection point in my life. One that fills me with lots of emotion. What God has planned for me I do not know, but I can only be excited about what He has lined up next.
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Andrew Snyder
Andrew Snyder@Andrewnsnyder·
I'm reading through Lewis's God in the Dock essay collection again and trying to take notes, but I'm just underlining the entire book.
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