Bartłomiej Gostyński

@SDSansing @fucktard6969 @cinnamontoastk Of course, "red" not "right" xD

@SDSansing @fucktard6969 @cinnamontoastk It's ok, you don't have to. You just only have to accept the fact that it's the pressing the right button that starts this race with the death. And each vote red is diminishing the chances of survival for the other part.

This red button/blue button discourse is wild. 100% red saves everyone no consequence 51% of blue saves everyone no consequence 51% red kills all of blue but they frame it like its blues fault they had to kill them even though red is the only choice that causes anyone to die.

@notpostingguy @5stringTex @CoolCuteJin If only you are ok with actively increasing chances of death for others - you can press red with clean conscience

@notpostingguy @5stringTex @CoolCuteJin Of course, there is - you are then actively diminishing the chances of survival for other people, who chose blue. Besides, in order to save everyone: red: requirement of 100% coordination blue: requirement of above 50% coordination. Which one is more likely?

I made a table for this. If you pick red, you will always survive. If you pick blue, you might die. You should always pick red.

@5stringTex @CoolCuteJin Well... Yes, only your attitude shows that instead of "I don't want anybody to die and I am willing to risk my life for it" you are just picking "I am ok with actively diminishing others chances of survival, if only I stay alive" 🤷

@CoolCuteJin If you pick red, you will always survive, regardless of what other people choose.

@johnloeber @mononaut @waitbutwhy Btw, in order to be 100% compatible with the game, the yellow one should be framed as: "If you press yellow, you survive, but you will take one vote from the stack needed for the green pressers to survive" Otherwise you just set up STH different than the original problem.

@mononaut @waitbutwhy Pressing blue does not “do nothing” in your framing because it does something — it’s an affirmative vote against red

Okay, this is my contribution to the Blue/Red button discourse. By reframing the Blue/Red prompt, and writing it in an equivalent-but-different way, votes move from @waitbutwhy's prompt: - Blue 58% -> 25% - Red 42% -> 75% It's as I suspected in my Rot13 post below: when people see the Blue/Red prompt, they pattern match it to similar-looking Prisoners Dilemma scenarios, where the correct, pro-social move is to cooperate while taking on some risk. But this scenario is not the same. This is interesting to me, because if so much of the vote is in the framing and pattern-matching of the problem, then this is actually a reading comprehension test, not an ethical dilemma.

@PutinLikePutin @TheJamie @Peekaboo_69420 @rnewton7777 Besides again, your building analogy contains a false premise: “there is no one inside at first.” In the actual-live dilemma, some people will inevitably press blue. So staying outside is not neutral.

@PutinLikePutin @TheJamie @Peekaboo_69420 @rnewton7777 That is the dilemma: failed cooperation endangeres the cooperating group; successful cooperation saves everyone, with much less coordination needed, only 50%+1. Pretending only the failed branch exists is not logic.

The blue button / red button debate is kind of interesting. Scenario one: you press the blue button and blue wins. Everybody wins. You are a hero. You risked all and saved many. Scenario two: You press the blue button and red wins. Your story ends. Scenario three: You press the red button and blue wins. You live. Scenario four: You press the red button and red wins. You live. Scenario five: You press the red button and red wins by 1 vote. Your vote could have saved four billion lives. The only case where anybody has regrets is maybe scenario five. And what's the chance of that?

@PutinLikePutin @TheJamie @Peekaboo_69420 @rnewton7777 You are conveniently focused solely on purely narcissistic blue motives instead of acknowledging that the real argument is structural: blue contributes to a lower rescue-all threshold, red withholds from it You cannot even do otherwise because your whole way of thinking fails xD

@PutinLikePutin @TheJamie @Peekaboo_69420 @rnewton7777 It’s rather: “Some people will choose blue, including vulnerable or loved people. Blue is the only threshold that can save them. Red makes that threshold harder to reach. Better to risk and press the blue.”

@PutinLikePutin @TheJamie @Peekaboo_69420 @rnewton7777 The dilemma here, genius, is rather "rescue everyone but risk your life" versus "secure your own life at the expense of making the death of others more likely" What you just couldn't understand is the "at the expense of making the death of others more likely" part.

@TheJamie @bart_gostynski @Peekaboo_69420 @rnewton7777 Nah man... In this particular scenario you have to be either altruistic or suicidal to consider blue as "default". It is not "my reason", it's called sanity. This "dilema" is literally either live or gamble your life for others sake.

@PutinLikePutin @TheJamie @Peekaboo_69420 @rnewton7777 You claim "blue is a necessary condition" and you stop there, content with yourself. Yes, it is NECESSARY, it's true, but it alone is NOT SUFFICIENT because if the blue exceeds 50% - no deaths as well. There is a possibility that at least one person pressed blue and no one died

@PutinLikePutin @TheJamie @Peekaboo_69420 @rnewton7777 NO! How many times should I explain this to you? There are TWO conditions that have to be fulfilled SIMULTANEOUSLY. 1. There must be at least one person pressing blue; 2. The number of red voters must exceed 50%.

@PutinLikePutin @TheJamie @Peekaboo_69420 @rnewton7777 You are confusing “blue is necessary for blue voters to die” with “blue is sufficient for death.” It is not. It doesn't logically follow. You are mistaken by your own assumptions.

@PutinLikePutin @TheJamie @Peekaboo_69420 @rnewton7777 “Red is do nothing” is just your chosen framing. In a threshold problem, “doing nothing” is still a non-contribution to the threshold. If enough people “do nothing,” the rescue condition fails. That is not irrelevant, that is the very mechanism in question.