Wonkavator

@ftg961 @DrFrankTurek But we MUST cooperate with Gods grace and not resist or deny it.

@calvin2christ @DrFrankTurek Exactly.

Many people in the pews of the Catholic church think the way to heaven is through works. Why is that?

@JoshuaBarzon The NT lists pastor as a gift not an office. Yet it is valid. Priests are called pastors after all

A Pastor Is an Elder Is a Bishop

I don't know about repeatedly... we grow in christ over our entire life and the eucharist is a natural part of that process Usually when we eat we metabolize whatever we eat into our body. But the eucharist works opposite. By consuming Christs body he actually metabolizes us into his body

@calvin2christ @DrFrankTurek 3) Confessing sin and walking with Christ are real and necessary for the Christian life, but Scripture never redefines justification or eternal life as something repeatedly re-acquired through traditions. It consistently anchors it in believing on Christ.

@ftg961 @DrFrankTurek Agreed. These are fruits that are the result of us cooperating with Gods grace. It is not our own by initiation.

@calvin2christ @DrFrankTurek These are God working through us unto good works. It’s not your efforts. It’s God at work in you. This is why we can’t glory in ourselves. Jesus takes all the glory. Read Philippians 2:13 and Ephesians 2:10. It is pride to think your good works can earn you God’s grace!

@godloveseucca @BIG_SGT_D @DrFrankTurek For starters, Jesus's List: Feeding the hungry Give drink to the thirsty Clothing the naked Visiting the sick Welcoming the stranger Visiting the prisoner

@calvin2christ @BIG_SGT_D @DrFrankTurek So then answer the question, what works save you

@jontheharris @WWUTTcom Great question!

@calvin2christ @WWUTTcom Which sins are those?

There are not “mortal” and “venial” sins. Every sin is deadly. Every sin is forgiven completely by faith in Jesus Christ. “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord” (Romans 6:23).

@ftg961 @DrFrankTurek Does Christs finished work means we don't need to clothe the naked, feed the hungry, visit those in prison etc? Why does paul say he is "Filling Up What Is Lacking In Christ's Afflictions"

@calvin2christ @DrFrankTurek If your righteous works are required, then you actually weren’t saved by only the finished work of Jesus! You were saved by your works. What then is the difference between you and the one who tries to earn salvation by the law? What’s the difference??

@ftg961 @DrFrankTurek Nothing merits initial justification. Paul was talking about the works of the law. Righteous works of live and charity are required for justification (i.e. not a "dead" faith)

@calvin2christ @DrFrankTurek Works is works. It was unspecified in the context. What matters is that God’s Grace is not earned by works! You can’t call salvation an act of Grace if works is required! If you think Grace needs works to complete it, then your theology needs a lot of reviewing!

@I_am_Wayne__ @DrFrankTurek This is exactly the catholic position

Paul's Stance (Romans 3:28): "For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law." James's Stance (James 2:24): "You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." Paul was writing to people who thought they could "earn" their way into heaven by following strict legal codes (works of the law). He wanted to emphasize that grace is a gift. James was writing to people who claimed to have faith but didn't actually do anything to help others. He wanted to emphasize that if your faith is real, it will naturally show up in your actions (works) Two big differences. Paul was dealing with "Judaizers," people who argued that to be a follower of Jesus, you first had to follow Jewish customs like circumcision, strict dietary laws (keeping Kosher), and observing specific holy days. Paul argued that these "works of the law" cannot save anyone. For him, "works" were a way people tried to maintain their own righteousness instead of relying on God's grace. James uses the word "works" differently. James was writing to people who were "all talk." They claimed to have faith but ignored the poor or treated people poorly. James defines "works" as practical, tangible help for others. In James 2:15-16, he gives a famous example: if a brother or sister is naked and hungry, and you just say "Go in peace, stay warm and fed" without actually giving them clothes or food, your "faith" is dead. For James, "works" are the evidence that your faith is alive. He isn't saying you earn salvation through charity, but rather that if you truly believe, you will naturally act with love and compassion. So no, it is faith alone however your faith will justify your good works.

I understand that theologically calvinists use the term justification as the initial grace of salvation, which is ok if you define it as such. But i would point out that is a new use of the word and that catholics orthodox Anglicans and many others understand that Justification happens at the beginning (initial justification) and ongoing. Similar to the idea of sanctification. Much of this disagreement is linguistic in nature. Catholics affirm that nothing merits and no works preceed initial justification. But anytime you confess your sins and he is faithful and just to forgive those sins, that also is justification. Just a different type. This is why James message that we are justified by works and not faith alone coheres to the rest of the new testament

@calvin2christ @joel_graff @DrFrankTurek 3) Scripture consistently places justification at the moment of believing in Christ, with fruit as the result, not the basis, of that life.

@ftg961 @DrFrankTurek What works is paul referring to there?

@calvin2christ @DrFrankTurek You can’t be saved by Grace and works joined together! It’s impossible. Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

@DanielSimp37987 @joel_graff @DrFrankTurek Agreed I think our point of difference if i am understanding you is that you believe in once saved always saved. The initial grace or salvation is a "grafting " onto the vine. But as Christ says those who don't bear fruit will be cut off and thrown into the fire.

@calvin2christ @joel_graff @DrFrankTurek 2) That means salvation is received by faith in Christ immediately, while abiding and obedience are the fruit of that life...not the condition that creates it.

@DanielSimp37987 @joel_graff @DrFrankTurek Salvation is a process. In the first moment complete (if you died then you would be saved) but each moment we have a choice. To abide in Christ or reject him

@calvin2christ @joel_graff @DrFrankTurek 2) Salvation is received the moment one believes on Christ, not after completing sacraments or traditions.

@DanielSimp37987 @joel_graff @DrFrankTurek In a certain way this is the catholic position. But you cannot reduce "salvation " to a moment in time. It is an entire life. You are "saved" when jesus says "well done good and faithful servant. Theosis.

@calvin2christ @joel_graff @DrFrankTurek 1) A believer should desire to grow, read Scripture, be baptized, and obey Christ. But those things are the result of salvation, not the cause of it. Jesus said the moment someone believes, they “hath everlasting life” (John 6:47, John 3:36).

@ftg961 @DrFrankTurek Of course you can always walk away and this is how you can reconcile romans 8:38-39 and romans 11:19-24

@calvin2christ @DrFrankTurek Wait, no one can take us from the hand of Jesus Yet you think you yourself are too strong to take yourself from the hand of Jesus? Which contradiction is that? I want you to think critically before we do proper exegesis of the issues you have with the verses you quoted.

@DanielSimp37987 @joel_graff @DrFrankTurek You are incorrect and of you denied getting baptism or eucharist then you are rejecting the very faith you claim to hold.

@calvin2christ @joel_graff @DrFrankTurek 2) Everlasting life is received through faith in Christ, while baptism and communion are acts of obedience and remembrance, not conditions for justification.

Yes they do because to not partake intentionally in baptism or the eucharist or good works, this would prove you either have no faith in Christ or your faith is that of the demons and not a saving faith (like James mentions) There's a lot of ink spilled on what is "required " for salvation, but salvation is not a single solitary declaration. You have to live your life around those precepts. Think about a Christian who said he put his faith in Christ but decided to never read the bible. Is that real faith?

@calvin2christ @joel_graff @DrFrankTurek 1) I agree believers should be baptized and partake in communion in obedience to Christ. The issue is whether those things save or keep someone saved. Jesus said, “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life” (John 3:36).

And believing on Christ is great. It is perfect. Look at the thief on the cross! But, lets say you come to faith in Christ and say "i don't need baptism, i have faith!" Or "i don't need the eucharist, i have faith!" This is NOT having faith. Salvation is not a moment in time. It is theosis, sactification. You cannot simply turn Salvation into a moment or the sinners prayer. This idea is called "baptism of intention", and has always been held by Christians. That after you decide to be a Christian, you must intend on living a Christian life, and eventually getting baptized or consuming the eucharist. It is necessary for a Christian life.

@calvin2christ @joel_graff @DrFrankTurek 2) John 6:47 does not say “he that eats communion hath everlasting life,” it says, “He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.”

Would you affirm that Jesus is the Passover lamb and that Passover was a type that pointed towards christ? So was ot just required to paint the doorframe with the blood, or did they ALSO have to consume the lamb as well. Faith is not merely a mental assent to the idea that "christ saves". It is ordering your whole life and producing fruit (called works!)

@calvin2christ @joel_graff @DrFrankTurek 2) So whatever John 6 means, it cannot contradict Jesus repeatedly saying eternal life comes through believing on Him. Paul’s warning in Corinthians is about treating the Lord’s supper irreverently, not about the elements giving eternal life.