chronoblip

Civilization measures its progress by how well it can avoid reality.

@TLArrington @DrScotMSullivan You forgot to add "finality".

@chronoblip @DrScotMSullivan Yes, Augustine and I think the many texts about division at final judgment mean there will be division at final judgment. That's how one receives information via a text. I encourage you to talk to your pastor about your hermeneutical nihilism.

Augustinian Vs Origenian Eschatology: Augustine 1. God’s justice is not knowable 2. God’s punishments are retributive 3. God will divide the world forever in the end Origen 1. God’s justice is knowable (through Christ the Logos) 2. God’s punishments are remedial 3. God will unite the world forever in the end (God will be “all in all” since “love never fails”)

@StanfieldBrent1 @Just_Vagabond @wichman_matthew So, just to clarify before moving on to the rest, God changing the heart of Saul so he becomes a different man is not changing the inner being of Saul? And this is because Saul later fell away and lost the Holy Spirit, so whatever God did to Saul was only temporary?

@chronoblip @Just_Vagabond @wichman_matthew It can be contrasted with what Paul appears to describe in Ephesians 3:14-19, where the Spirit does an internal work in us SO THAT we can have faith. Mary already has faith in Luke 1. The apostles already had faith by Acts 1.

Baby Jesus was faithless according to Christian here. 🤷🏻‍♂️

@TLArrington @DrScotMSullivan I don't have to justify Origen's supposedly Neoplatonic assumptions to point out that Augustine isn't by default biblical because of what you think the text implies.

@chronoblip @DrScotMSullivan You're obsessed with literalness, but I haven't claimed a literal interp here. Metaphor works just fine. Your problem is how to justify Origen's Neoplatonic assumptions.

@OzarCaneSaw @Valent_FJ @ThugLifeJMac Semantic posturing and ad hominem, the letter and not the heart. The historical evidence is still against the iconophiles, yet they have still declared anathema those who do not comply with their practices, even in your translation. Denying facts to preserve "infallibility"?

@chronoblip @Valent_FJ @ThugLifeJMac Salute/venerate/honor isn’t worship. Your source purposefully misinterpreted what was said in the canons. The fact you aren’t concerned over it tells me you have little desire to understand why Christians venerate icons & their use in petitioning saints. Read St John Damascus.

If I am somewhere between Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy, should I attend an EO church with my family? Or should I wait until my mind is made up?

Mary, Joseph, and Jesus also left Egypt after some time.

@StanfieldBrent1 @Just_Vagabond @wichman_matthew You speculate a difference between whether the change is internal to nature or for equipping for purpose. Where does the Bible ever delineate that distinction? Because changing the nature is exactly what God did to Saul, who had the Spirit "come upon" him. New heart and all.

@chronoblip @Just_Vagabond @wichman_matthew What is speculation? When the angel says to Mary: “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.” it is clear in context that this is so that she can bear a child (ie specific purpose). So, I don’t think I’m really speculating.

@StanfieldBrent1 @Just_Vagabond @wichman_matthew Who did David write Psalm 22 about? Did David write it about himself?

@chronoblip @Just_Vagabond @wichman_matthew Psalm 22 is a psalm of David.

@TheMuppetPastor An easy answer, but with a ton of controversy if you follow the right rabbit trails... 😅

Yes indeed! He was also related to Ruth, Rahab, and Tamar, all women with checkered pasts.

@StanfieldBrent1 @Just_Vagabond @wichman_matthew Apart from a text explaining such, that is all speculation. Faith is evidenced in what we do, as James so controversially put it, even under the new covenant. That is why David was so concerned about what happened to Saul. Who do you understand Psalm 22 to be talking about?

@chronoblip @Just_Vagabond @wichman_matthew Having said that, I think Saul may have been saved. He had faith in God, although imperfect. Very imperfect.

@TLArrington @DrScotMSullivan Augustine admitted in his "Confessions" that he only converted to Christianity after learning that he didn't have to take the text literally, and your assertion at the beginning of this thread that Augustine was biblical? I think your warnings to me are greatly misplaced.

@chronoblip @DrScotMSullivan Some implications of a text are inherent to it, not imposed from without. A central point of the Matt 25 story is division at judgment, and some are sent away to "eternal punishment." I would caution you against making the text an empty vessel to be filled with pagan metaphysics.

@StanfieldBrent1 @Just_Vagabond @wichman_matthew Now the "fun" part. If being filled with the Holy Spirit is "giving faith", why did Saul (referenced above) who was filled with the Holy Spirit not have faith in God and the Holy Spirit eventually left him? Because that would mean I cannot continue granting 2 of your examples.

@chronoblip @Just_Vagabond @wichman_matthew 🤦🏻‍♂️ I have not claimed he has given faith to any but those 3. My position is simple: HE CAN. Christian’s position is: “It’s impossible. They must be able to hear… I mean understand… I mean have the mental capacity. And babies don’t have mental capacity.”

@OzarCaneSaw @Valent_FJ @ThugLifeJMac What revisions and edits did Kevin Knight make to adapt Henry Percival's work from over a century ago for New Advent?

@chronoblip @Valent_FJ @ThugLifeJMac Btw, you should’ve asked, who is Henry Percival. There’s plenty of information on him. Answering my own question: the man you cited, who published an inaccurate translation of the seventh ecumenical council, was a rector of a church in England bedsarchives.bedford.gov.uk/CommunityHisto…

@OzarCaneSaw @Valent_FJ @ThugLifeJMac If "salute" for you is more accurately reflecting the practice of prayer "through" and veneration of icons for you than "worship" from these century old texts translating into English, that is a rather different accusation than of the outright misrepresentation of Orthodoxy.

@chronoblip @Valent_FJ @ThugLifeJMac When you offer *proof* of what is not Orthodox teaching by someone who is not Orthodox, you are not acting in good faith. It’s ridiculous to claim that those who combated the false allegation of icon worship would anathematize those who do not worship icons. How stupid.

@OzarCaneSaw @Valent_FJ @ThugLifeJMac Who is Kevin Knight? 🤪 Can we stop playing silly games that distract from how both the Eastern and Western Orthodox declared "anathema" all those who did not partake in, or spoke against, the practices associated with icon veneration? Or how "anathema" has changed since then?

@chronoblip @Valent_FJ @ThugLifeJMac Cool. Who’s John Mendham? Seventh General Council? 😂

@PhilGarber5 Why is rejection of PSA a "spiritual tell" if you only have concerns when people argue against atonement "in principle"?

@chronoblip I’m sorry I can’t follow your thought process or what you think you’re responding. I have no brief for PSA as an elaborated Protestant doctrine. I do have concerns when people argue against atonement in principle.

There are no passages in the Bible which give Christians "spiritual tells", explaining that people will reject specific teachings that hadn't been invented as of the formalization of the canon, specifically because they have not been convicted of sin. Anecdotes aren't data.

@TLArrington @DrScotMSullivan All it takes to remove implications is to stop coming to the text with the same presuppositions and axioms. Because implications are, by definition, not the text itself. Especially when things like brimstone had a purpose outside of just being referenced in the Bible.

@chronoblip @DrScotMSullivan Didn't say the imagery is literal; said the passages imply division and finality, which they do. On what basis would Origen & Co remove these implications? Neoplatonism of course.

@Fletch1171 I've finally realized what Calvinism is about, it’s about defending Calvinism not the Bible You have to follow their thought process to understand what they believe If you just read the Bible you never will It's like going down the rabbit hole, theology in a tube You can't argue

@TLArrington @DrScotMSullivan The "East" doesn't have to say "clear implication of scriptural teaching" in a way that takes away all the authority of your position, given reliance on sola scriptura. Taking metaphors and apocalyptic imagery literally undermines any assertion about handling the text properly.

@DrScotMSullivan Bad news for the East if so. But the clear implication of scriptural teaching re judgment is that there will be division and finality. Dives & Lazarus, Matt 7:13-14, Parable of sheep & goats, Rev on the Lake of Fire.