@Tony_Ray__ I hope justice is served and everyone find peace and healing.
English
Daniel Druen
160 posts
I definitely do not represent this group.
I reported photos of a nine year old female student that had been stripped of all of her clothes and posed on a couch. Other people of that group did not. This is recorded court testimony.
I am not Baptist.They seem to be raping kids.
Daniel Druen@danieldruen
@Tony_Ray__ @geekyguyjay Yes. Janitors with email addresses. It’s clear you don’t represent this group.
English
@Tony_Ray__ @geekyguyjay Yes. Janitors with email addresses. It’s clear you don’t represent this group.
English
@danieldruen @geekyguyjay Janitors?
Those are biblically related. Not positions that would be sharing the word.
Is there a “youth pastor “ on that list? Every church has a youth pastor.
English
"The SBC promised you could cooperate without violence to conscience."
Tell that to Saddleback or the other disfellowshipped SBC churches.
Either local church autonomy has meaning or it doesn't. Jon is pretty clearly on the side of "it doesn't" when churches don't line up.
Jon Whitehead@jrwhitehead
If these are the right premises, then the Primitive Baptist conclusions seem inescapable. The SBC promised you could cooperate without violence to conscience. If being Baptist means there are no enforceable standards, then cooperation without sin becomes impossible.
English
@jonathanparnell There is a lot at play here. The temptation to say we are being oppressed, is strong in our culture.
We’re used to top down leadership and not grassroots that comes from our autonomy and Congregationalism.
English
Denny is totally correct here. It baffles me that folks can’t understand this.
Denny Burk@DennyBurk
The attached image is also from Mike Bird’s essay. It’s another false allegation that betrays a basic misunderstanding of Baptist polity. What Mohler said 25 years ago is an absolutely true statement. In fact, you’re not a Baptist if you can’t agree with it. We don’t tell any church what they can or can’t do. If a church wants to have a female pastor, there’s nothing the SBC can do about it. That church is free to have a female pastor. The SBC, however, is also free not to cooperate with that church. Mohler’s statement reflects the reality that churches and conventions are sovereign in their own sphere. This is Baptist Polity 101.
English
@Tony_Ray__ @geekyguyjay In all fairness, there are men on this organizational chart labeled Director. Of course I think that’s perfectly acceptable. These men are Deacons. I wonder if they know that?
English
@Tony_Ray__ @JimmyParker87 @UpTambourine We simply do not know as Romans chapter 16:1-2 is the only mention of her in the Bible. She’s called a servant or a Deacon in verse one.
Sounds like she gainded a good standing for herself and also great confidence in the faith that is in Christ Jesus."
English
English
Opposition to the Mohler Amendment is STRONG. At this point I'll be shocked if it passes. What was supposed to be something that keeps us within Biblical bounds has actually served to be a spotlight that is revealing the liberalism that wasn't eradicated but merely retreated.
English
@Tony_Ray__ @JimmyParker87 @UpTambourine By all means the women need to serve. Director, teacher, and even Deacon if the church as a plurality of qualified
Male Elders. I think it would be helpful for our churches to thing through our formal titles to as classified as Pastoral or Diaconal.
English
@danieldruen @JimmyParker87 @UpTambourine The workers are few but the harvest is plenty.
Eliminating women takes away half the workforce.
English
The attached image is also from Mike Bird’s essay. It’s another false allegation that betrays a basic misunderstanding of Baptist polity.
What Mohler said 25 years ago is an absolutely true statement. In fact, you’re not a Baptist if you can’t agree with it. We don’t tell any church what they can or can’t do. If a church wants to have a female pastor, there’s nothing the SBC can do about it. That church is free to have a female pastor.
The SBC, however, is also free not to cooperate with that church.
Mohler’s statement reflects the reality that churches and conventions are sovereign in their own sphere. This is Baptist Polity 101.
English
Chairman Mao presided over the deaths of about 1.6 million people during the cultural revolution. He is one of the great villains of history. This comparison is unhinged.
“When I hear about SBC politics, I don’t know whether I’m reading about Mohler’s ‘conservative resurgence’ or Mao’s ‘cultural revolution.’”
Dr. Michael F. Bird@mbird12
The Purge of Women as Pastors in the SBC Certain groups in the Southern Baptist Convention are pushing forward an amendment to prohibit women from using the title "pastor" for any ministry role—including youth, worship, or pastoral care. I explain why such a proposal is needless and concerning. open.substack.com/pub/michaelfbi…
English
@MaryWittTN @JimmyParker87 He addresses this in his interview with the @BaptistReview . I encourage everyone to listen to that interview.
English
@JimmyParker87 I think a lot of the opposition exists because Mohler et al won't answer the questions about Children's Ministers, Sunday School teachers (allowed until age ___), VBS directors, ...not to mention an opinion on using Lottie Moon and Annie Armstrong's names to fundraise.
English
@Tony_Ray__ @JimmyParker87 @UpTambourine There are Pastor’s and Deacon. Those are the only two Church offices given in the New Testament. There should be a plurality of both Pastors and Deacons in every local church.
English
Autonomous Baptist bodies have the right to disfellowship their equally-autonomous members.
And both parties demonstrate their autonomy by going their separate ways and continuing to do whatever they will to do.
This is not a rejection of autonomy but an exercise of it.
English
@Wade_Burleson @pastordmack This is a tired argument. The SBC has no any authority to barr anyone from being a Pastor. But it can dictate who is in friendly cooperation with the convention.
How refreshing it would be to hear of a church, correcting its faith and practice rather than talk about its rights!
English
@PastorMikeStone Thank you for serving! And may future members have conviction concerning our statement of faith AND practice!
English
Having sat on the SBC Credentials Committee when there was SHOCKING hesitancy to dismiss an LGBTQ-affirming church, it was helpful that a section of Article 3 gave clear instructions on this issue.
At the time (2019) it was the ONLY illustrative amendment.
Give the CC clarity.
English
@pastordmack Dr. Mohler addressed this statement in his interview with the Baptist review and it was most helpful.
English
This is lunacy on steroids. The SBC appears to be poised to follow Al Mohler off of a cliff, believing & applying his proposed “gag a woman” amendment to disfellowship SBC churches who would sanction “a woman answering follow-up questions about sermons on a church podcast” as the equivalent of a woman functioning as a pastor. Common sense, sane, and scriptural minds in the SBC have to prevail and vote against the Mohler amendment, and stop the madness. The SBC already has a horrendous blight on her history that she has not lived down to this very day. Please messenger’s to Orlando, don’t let this be the second blight around the sbc neck that she’ll never be able to live down. Vote against the lunacy, indefinitely Mohler amendment for the sake of the kingdom of God, and to do further damage to a brand that the sbc desperately needs to continue distance itself from. Anything that smacks itself of being anywhere close in appearance to racism or sexism, the SBC needs to distance herself from it. Denying a woman the right to engage in sermon commentary on a podcast is unadorned sexism.
ChurchLeaders.com@ChurchLead
Albert Mohler says a woman answering follow-up questions about sermons on a church podcast is functioning as a pastor, title or not. He's now proposing a constitutional amendment at the SBC annual meeting to make that standard official. churchleaders.com/news/2217844-a…
English
@pastordmack @pastordmack The pastor is to be a one-woman *man*, the *husband* of one wife. Women can be neither men nor husbands. Why would you not support Mohler?
English
A vote for the Mohler amendment is a vote to give Al Mohler, William Wolfe, and Tom Ascol, the license and power to determine what “function” a woman can and cannot engage in, in a local SBC church that they deem as “functioning” as a pastor, in their eyes, thus violating the bfm2k in their eyes, and being disfellowshipped from the sbc. Why for heaven’s sake, would the sbc grant the theology and thinking of Al Mohler, William Wolfe, and Tom Ascol, to wield that kind of power over a local sbc church where Jesus is Lord, and sanctioned the woman at the well to go and give commentary on the message Jesus gave to her at the well. To vote for the Mohler amendment is a vote for lunacy, foolishness, and to take the convention counter culture to Jesus’s example set by permitting women to comment on his commentary, without being in violation of Scripture or, the will of God. A vote for the Mohler amendment is unnecessary, and hurtful to the image of the sbc.
ChurchLeaders.com@ChurchLead
Albert Mohler says a woman answering follow-up questions about sermons on a church podcast is functioning as a pastor, title or not. He's now proposing a constitutional amendment at the SBC annual meeting to make that standard official. churchleaders.com/news/2217844-a…
English
@pastordmack God actually defines a woman’s function. Men like you are the ones trying to subvert Scripture.
All because you don’t want to be “hurtful to the image of the SBC”
Just be honest and admit you care more about women’s opinions than you do about God’s.
English
If we are going to require churches to prevent messengers from holding certain views let’s start with requiring them not to send messengers who violate the 9th Commandment. That will eliminate a fair number of regulars.
Bart Barber@bartbarber
"7. Does not teach, endorse, or otherwise promote the idea that the civil magistrate should lead the government to promote any religion over any other religion and does not elect as messengers to this Convention any who espouse such views."
English
@bartbarber I greatly respect how you presided in Indianapolis. I cannot help but see this as being facetious; and therefore you opposing the Truth and Unity amendment?
Dr. Mohler’s interview was great on the Baptist review; I hope that eases concerns that have lingered the last few years
English
"7. Does not teach, endorse, or otherwise promote the idea that the civil magistrate should lead the government to promote any religion over any other religion and does not elect as messengers to this Convention any who espouse such views."
English
I can think of one helpful amendment to the Truth and Unity Amendment that would be greatly beneficial. Most of the criticisms that I have heard have fallen under two headings:
English
@sometimesalight @geekyguyjay No there’s no possible way the SBC could strip a church of his authority to ordain whoever it wants to. We are not at denomination in the traditional sense. It can, however define who is and is not in friendly cooperation with the convention.
English
The effect of the amendment then is not simply to restrict women from being pastors but to redefine the office of pastor in such a way that it strips congregations of their authority to ordain people & places it in hands of SBC bureaucracy.
Ordination is now an HR matter.
English
Been thinking about this some more & it’s *astounding* what the proposed amendment actually suggests about the nature of pastoral office
hannah anderson@sometimesalight
The framing of SBC debate re: women & title of pastor is so ironic to me b/c it's not traditional or conservative by any historical metric to define a vocation by "function." That's a modern, techno-cosmology in which we're all just cogs in institutional & social machinery.
English
@WilliamWolfe This was also the year a Messenger tried to censure Dr. Mohler and Ben Mandrel.
English
It’s true! And I don’t mean that as a shot at Mohler. But this speaks to the reality of how the “respectable conservatives” operate.
I was giving them advice that was just two years early I guess.
Rhett Burns@rhett_burns
I remember a convo in Indy when @WilliamWolfe directly told someone very close to Dr. Mohler that he ought to persuade Mohler to speak from the floor in favor of Law. He looked at William like a deer in headlights. These last 2 years could have been different.
English