Mark Engelberg

2.2K posts

Mark Engelberg

Mark Engelberg

@mark_engelberg

Always prefers the alternate ending in the special features. @[email protected] [email protected]

Katılım Nisan 2015
423 Takip Edilen717 Takipçiler
Mark Engelberg
Mark Engelberg@mark_engelberg·
@vikrantnyc @Excellion In any case, functional privacy matters most to me which is why I choose liquid. If spark someday delivers on their hope for better privacy features, I'll reevaluate.
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Mark Engelberg
Mark Engelberg@mark_engelberg·
@vikrantnyc @Excellion makes a great point that if you're pinning your definition of non-custodial to unilateral exit, for many holdings unilateral exit will be economically infeasible. And if you're dependent on cooperative exit, federated looks better than a single point of failure.
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Mark Engelberg
Mark Engelberg@mark_engelberg·
Liquid is the only L2 I feel comfortable using right now for the reasons Samson lists here. I would like to know more about boltz/sideswap logging/tracking since they seem to be centralized points for pegging in/out or atomic swaps.
Samson Mow@Excellion

Lately there's been a lot of discussion around L2s like Liquid, Ark, and Spark, and the deciding factor for preference seems to have become unilateral exit: the ability to exit to the mainchain on your own initiative, even if the operator is malicious, censoring you, or has vanished entirely. Ironically, as people are discovering, only one Spark wallet actually supports unilateral exit (the others say it's coming later), which is a bit comical, because that's often the very reason the more hardcore Bitcoiners dismiss Liquid. At @JAN3com, we're building on @Liquid_BTC because I firmly believe it offers the best set of tradeoffs. After Liquid, my next choice would be Ark, and personally I would avoid Spark because of how centralized it is. It's all about the substrate. We're all trying to solve for the best L2 substrate, which can also include ecash mints or even databases (like the original WoS). Here's what I believe are the key criteria, in priority order. 1️⃣ Privacy. Both operator-side (are they logging you?) and on-chain (are amounts/assets confidential?) 2️⃣ Operator model. Single operator or federation? Can they steal funds, and can they censor you? 3️⃣ Liquidity. How deep and accessible is it? 4️⃣ Time in production. How long has it been live, and has it held up under real-world conditions? 5️⃣ Data availability. Can you get the data to prove what you own, without relying on the operator? 6️⃣ Economically viable exit. Is that exit actually affordable, or does fee/congestion cost make it theoretical? 7️⃣ Unilateral exit. Can you exit to the mainchain on your own initiative, even if the operator is malicious, censoring you, or gone? 8️⃣ Liveness requirements. Do you have to come online periodically or risk losing funds? (relevant for Ark) How does Liquid stack up for these criteria? Really well. 1️⃣ Privacy. Confidential Transactions by default hide both the transaction amount and the asset type from all observers, including functionaries. Functionaries can't see amounts or asset types, so there's nothing to even log if they wanted to. 2️⃣ Operator model. 15 functionaries, 11-of-15 multisig, HSM-secured, tolerating up to 4 offline. Functionary code is open-source. 3️⃣ Liquidity. $5B TVL, including $4B+ in tokenized securities and ~$97M native USDT. 4️⃣ Time in production. Live since October 2018 as Bitcoin's first production sidechain (~7.5 years). 5️⃣ Data availability. Anyone can run a full node and trustlessly self-validate the chain, with L-BTC always verifiably 1:1 with BTC locked on mainchain. 6️⃣ Economically viable exit. 0.1 sat/vB average fee. For most users the primary exit is an atomic swap of L-BTC for BTC, which is permissionless and doesn't require federation membership. 7️⃣ Unilateral exit. Not there for regular users yet, but coming via a BitVM-style 1-of-n bridge on the roadmap. And as a business, you can join as a federation member today and peg out directly, no third party needed. 8️⃣ Liveness requirements. No online-or-lose mechanic; L-BTC sits indefinitely. Notice that economically viable exit sits above unilateral exit on my list. That's deliberate. Let's dig in. It's important to remember that L2 substrates are exactly that: substrates. None of them can compete with the trustless, permissionless properties of the Bitcoin mainchain. Anything you're holding long-term belongs on mainchain, in your own custody. You're using the substrate for spending (small amounts) or cost-effective UTXO aggregation, so unilateral exit isn't that important outside of an ideological insistence on having it. What you actually want is privacy, durability, liquidity, and economically viable exits. Remember how many Muun wallet users were caught off guard when mainchain fees spiked? When fees climb again, what you thought was a unilateral exit turns out to be no exit at all. Once network fees hit around 5-10 Sats/vB (or higher), unilaterally exiting small Ark VTXOs or Spark leaves stops being worth it. Let's take an example of 10 small balances adding up to 100k sats. At those fee levels, pulling each one out on-chain can eat 40–100% (or more) of what it's worth. You'd burn most or all of the value just to move it. At that point, it's effectively dust. This is because of the tree/branch/leaf structure of Ark and Spark. 5-10 Sats/vB isn't even expensive for a normal BTC transaction: at $100k, that's just $0.71 to $1.41. The cost blows up only because a unilateral exit means unrolling that structure on-chain, not broadcasting one clean transaction. Ark and Spark are really optimized for cooperative exits and if you're expecting cooperation anyway, then rationally you should expect that same cooperation for a Liquid peg-out. So with Liquid you get both: a cooperative exit via peg-out, and the primary atomic-swap model into a pool that's (pun intended) deep and liquid. @Liquid_BTC is perfect for the average person and that's why we're building @AquaBitcoin on it. TL;DR: Unilateral exit is oversold, especially when it's too expensive to actually use. For everyday spending amounts, exiting small Ark/Spark balances becomes uneconomical the moment fees rise, so it's an exit on paper only. Privacy, liquidity, durability, and a cheap real-world exit matter more, and Liquid wins on those. Hold long-term on mainchain; use the substrate for spending/aggregation.

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Mark Engelberg
Mark Engelberg@mark_engelberg·
@MikeIppolito_ I don't see how dozens of incompatible stablecoins running on dozens of non-interoperable chains help the situation.
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Mippo 🟪
Mippo 🟪@MikeIppolito_·
I don't think people appreciate how much payments suck in the US. People often say stablecoins make sense for people ex-US because it's so good here, but I don't agree with that. It's actually better almost everywhere else. Payments take forever, are expensive, and are insanely complicated. It's kind of wild being a US citizen and going almost anywhere else. Seriously everywhere, from South America to the UK. Stablecoins make sense here, I promise you. It's why the banking lobby hates them so much.
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Mark Engelberg
Mark Engelberg@mark_engelberg·
@aeonBTC Have you considered lightning address or is that out of scope because it would require running a server? Would it be possible for individuals running their own node?
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Mark Engelberg
Mark Engelberg@mark_engelberg·
@aeonBTC Played around with Ibis for the first time last night. I'm super impressed with how clean and clear the UI is despite its sophisticated feature set. Especially love the Tor integration applying to both L1 and L2. Kudos!
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aeon
aeon@aeonBTC·
Everyone is arguing about which L2 is best to integrate into their wallet, Spark, Liquid, Ark.. Best solution? Just use Ibis wallet and you can choose between any one you want. Upcoming Ibis v4.5-beta will have native Lightning support via gRPC or NWC. github.com/aeonbtc/IbisWa…
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Mark Engelberg
Mark Engelberg@mark_engelberg·
But that spark->usdc convenience is only theoretical for me, as I am unwilling to accept the abysmal level of privacy and censorship resistance of usdc.
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Mark Engelberg
Mark Engelberg@mark_engelberg·
I do like the convenience in some spark wallets to send btc as usdc, as usdc is more prevalent in the US than usdt. From Aqua liquid wallet, you'd do something like liquid btc -> liquid usdt -> solana usdt -> solana usdc (last step on 3rd party swap provider) costing high fees.
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Mark Engelberg
Mark Engelberg@mark_engelberg·
@askclarahealth Does it know how to navigate insurance's prior authorization process for prescriptions and procedures?
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Clara
Clara@askclarahealth·
A concierge doctor in your pocket for $99/month
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Paul Keating
Paul Keating@thepaulosophy·
This is why @spark is winning and will continue to win. I don’t want a thousand lightning wallets. I want ONE that works in all my apps. Like @walletofsatoshi has great UX for spending - same seed. Like @cakewallet for swapping coins (if you do this) - same seed Like @BlitzWalletApp for sending gifts- same seed. Like @cluborange for geozapping - same seed. Like @RadarChat to pay the group chat - same seed Like @primal_app to send zaps & pay anyone with their preferred receiving address - same seed And many more. Incredible convenience. And drives me nuts knowing people are running multiple spark wallets instead of consolidating. If you’re still here, I think the Nostr enabled wallets will win long term. Largest address book, zapping content or zapping to buy goods & the ability to take your wallets into other apps with ease is why it’ll win. Work to do on that last part. Convenience comes at a cost. DYOR. Use Bitcoin how you see fit 🫡
Gabe | Bitcoin Advisors@GabeBTCAdvisors

@thepaulosophy @RadarChat @BlitzWalletApp One seed phrase to rule them all 🤩

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Mark Engelberg
Mark Engelberg@mark_engelberg·
@GabeBTCAdvisors @thepaulosophy @RadarChat @BlitzWalletApp I played around with loading seeds into blitz wallet as additional wallets but it seems that certain features only apply to the main initial blitz wallet and it's not totally clear which (definitely lightning address, maybe accumulation addresses?, not sure what else).
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Gabe | Bitcoin Advisors
Gabe | Bitcoin Advisors@GabeBTCAdvisors·
Current daily spending setup: @RadarChat for messaging and sending bitcoin to contacts. @BlitzWalletApp (same seed) to send and receive USDT - for topping up prepaid cards without needing to hold USDT 💩 Shoutout to everyone involved in making these tools.
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calle
calle@callebtc·
@openoms @blinkbtc @blinkbtcdev @Breez_Tech @spark hmmmmm. - if they don’t give your leaf data, you can’t withdraw your coins - if they collude with the previous owner they can steal those leaves - if they were the original minter of all leaves they can steal all that money on the statechain
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openoms
openoms@openoms·
I force-exited a non-custodial Blink wallet (using Spark) on Bitcoin mainnet. Seed only, no operators. 100,000 sats in → 89,668 reach the destination. 18 of 22 leaves were dust costing more to exit than they hold. The exit works, but it's a fire escape, not a door.
openoms tweet media
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Mark Engelberg
Mark Engelberg@mark_engelberg·
@OpenAI Can this model distinguish between multiple speakers talking to it simultaneously? The 4o demos showcased this ability but then the one that shipped never actually could do this.
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AQUA Wallet
AQUA Wallet@AquaBitcoin·
AQUA 0.5.1 is live now! 🌊🎉 You can now pay with @OpenCryptoPay and a wider range of LNURL payment links right from AQUA. We also made Lightning sends faster and more reliable, so your payments go through smoothly every time. ⚡🐬 Go update your app!
AQUA Wallet tweet media
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Brandon Bucher
Brandon Bucher@BTCNautilus·
@notgrubles It’s not quite none of them. @stacked_bitcoin made this a requirement before we could move out of beta. We routinely store the leaf state in the app, and make it available to download. It’s still not an ideal, admittedly, as it requires a separate tool, but it works.
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grubles
grubles@notgrubles·
I love seeing Bitcoin adoption but I feel a strong ethical obligation to point out how no Spark wallet app implements unilateral exit. None of them. This means you fully trust a third party due to how wallets implement Spark support in practice. Also none of the recovery tools that claim to provide "unilateral exit" actually can do one. They all call out to a Spark server and ask for your statechain leaves. No wallet app saves these locally. If the server is down, you're screwed.
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Mark Engelberg
Mark Engelberg@mark_engelberg·
@vikrantnyc @RadarChat Seems premature to do this before spark has implemented their privacy roadmap. Love the idea, but people have end-to-end encryption expectations with signal that are not currently met by the spark integration.
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Vik Sharɱa - Cake Wallet & Radar Chat 🇺🇸 📡
Today we are launching @RadarChat, a messaging app that combines Signal's encryption with built-in Bitcoin Lightning payments, and because it's a Signal fork, you can keep messaging your existing Signal contacts from day one. No convincing friends to switch apps. The idea: you can already message someone privately, so why bounce out to Venmo or Cash App and hand your financial info to a third party every time you want to send money? Radar keeps both in one place. Send a message, send sats, all in the same conversation. What it does: ✅Works with your Signal contacts - it's a Signal fork, so the messaging side inherits Signal's encryption model and interoperates with the Signal network. ✅Private by default - Signal’s end-to-end encrypted messaging. ✅Bitcoin Lightning under the hood - fast, cheap settlement, non-custodial. Send within chats or externally.  You can just use it as your Bitcoin wallet! ✅Your seed phrase is encrypted and saved on Signal servers.  Lose your phone or app? Just restore Radar with our phone number as you normally do, and get your wallet back! (Although we still recommend that you write down your seed phrase) The privacy of Signal. The convenience of instant private Bitcoin Lightning payments. Backed by @egodeathcapital and built by the team that brought you @cakewallet It's live now. I'd love feedback from this community, so give it a try and tell me what works and what doesn't. You can download it now on the Apple App Store now and Google Play soon. Learn more at radar.chat!
Radar.Chat@RadarChat

Your messages. Your Bitcoin. Together, at last. Radar brings private messaging and self-custodial Bitcoin Lightning together in one seamless experience, and because it's built on Signal's incredible network - the people you already talk to come with you.

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