Mike Marshall

Well.

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Well, this is a interesting argument. There are elements to every spiritual religion that require some element of faith. Case in point, when Mohammed first received the vision from Jibril, he was unsure if he could trust it, so he spoke of it to his wife Khadijah, who assured him that it was God (Allah) because Allah would never disgrace him. So the burden of proof for all of Islam lies in the good word of his wife? Imagine if Christianity was based on this claim. Christianity wouldn’t have made it past the first century. The very burden of proof argument you oppose for the Trinity is the very groundwork of Islam.

The Trinity isn’t in dispute because it’s “too deep.” It’s in dispute because nobody can explain it without eventually saying, “It’s a mystery.”

I believe we may reach a point of agreement that, to a degree, both religions require an element of faith beyond simple “hard proof.” However, this is what makes me grateful for the testimony of the Christian faith. While God is not required to provide evidence for His existence, He has revealed His footprints throughout history time and time again. The Dead Sea Scrolls, which I am sure you know, are one example. They helped solidify and validate much of the Old Testament and parts of the New Testament. Anyway, I leave this exchange encouraged by our discourse. Although we have points of contention, I’m glad we discussed this civilly. 🙏🏾

@mikee_marshall @dawahxdialogues But again theres a difference between historical certainty & metaphysical certainty. We have epistemic justification to believe the Quran is the word of God. He saved His prophet from a shameful public execution, since it was made to appear so we have historical accounts for it.

If Jesus came back to earth today, who would he recognize as his true followers? Those who pray to the same One God he prayed to, have no idols in their places of worship, and worship God alone? Or those who celebrate his death, eat and drink “God” on Sundays, and fill churches with idols?

Ok. You clearly aren’t well versed in history. Yes, the Ebionites were a group of Jews who rejected the divinity of Christ and they were hailed as heretics by the Church Fathers. I’m not sure what point you’re making. Did the Ebionites exist? Yes. Were there other Jewish sects who believed in Christ’s divinity? Yes. Were the Ebionites in the minority of first century Jews? Yes.

@mikee_marshall @dawahxdialogues Yes, one of those examples are the Ebionites who followed Christ but rejected the idea of his divinity. So retract your delusion that some early Jews believed Jesus was God before the advent of Paul’s religion.

Every Prophet that came to earth was a Muslim. Then Paul showed up.. Now we have 2 Billion Pagans.

Well so much for this being a quick and swift operation… ground.news/article/irans-…

@10969baga @dawahxdialogues Ok, so before we jump into the conversation just be sure to read all the threads 😇 We are talking about historical 1st Century Jews who would have been His first followers.

@mikee_marshall @dawahxdialogues Many Jews believed Jesus was God? They don’t even accept him as a prophet, let alone God. Ever heard of the Ebionites?

Yes. One citation is John 10:33-38, where the Jews say they are not stoning Him for the good works He was doing but because of the claims He was making that He was God. If the argument is that the canonical gospels are not trustworthy, then consider historical accounts of Jesus’ first followers who believed Him to be God, written by Flavius Josephus, Tacitus, and Pliny the Younger, among others. I can appreciate Islam to a degree, as many points coincide with Christianity, but examining it requires jumping through fallacious historical loopholes.

@mikee_marshall @dawahxdialogues Yes but what did he teach? You believe that he taught he was God & that is what he was killed for. & we believe the Pharisees & the ruling class of Jews attempted to have him killed him because he wasn't The Messiah they were expecting.

@kayjay23 @korrathetaymi Respect brother 🙏🏾🤍

@mikee_marshall @korrathetaymi َكُمْ دِينُكُمْ وَلِيَ دِينِ

Every prophet called people to worship One God. Not one prophet taught a Trinity. Not one prophet said God is three persons. Not one prophet taught God became a man. Yet millions believe it anyway. Ask yourself why.

Islamic tradition teaches that entrance into Jannah is in fact a monopoly and that there is no guarantee of acceptance there, regardless of what deeds one committed, however good they may have been. How can one find clarity in this if the goal in life is to do good deeds to get to jannah?

The modern world is completely exhausting and full of confusion. Islam is the only place you will find true clarity and sanity.

@MakiTheSalafi Well this is an interesting take because if this is true then why not become a Jew? Both are monotheistic faiths believing in the one God revealed to Abraham.

I left Christianity, because there is no justification for me to be a Christian when islam exists.

@SalHumbles @dawahxdialogues Ok here are making incomplete historical arguments. Was he considered a rebel against Rome? Yes, but for what reason? Was He given the title “King of the Jews” before He was executed? Yes but for what reason? Because of what he taught.

@mikee_marshall @dawahxdialogues History shows us that Jesus was "killed" for being a political rebel against Rome. He was "killed" for being King Of The Jews not because he claimed to be God. Islam works whether you like it or not & it's going to keep working & growing.

Okay again, this starts as a good argument, but it falls apart as the Qur’an agrees with much of what the Bible, specifically the Old Testament, says. In fact, some would argue that Islam hold the figures of the Old Testament in higher regard than the Old Testament itself. This argument also falls flat because, for Islam to work, it must fly in the face of written and well-documented history. “It stands on its own two feet” — by what merit? By the merit of Muhammad? This flies in the face of the burden of proof. With respect, as I love my Muslim brothers and sisters, there is no proof. It is the claims of one man. Islamic tradition teaches that Muhammad’s burden of proof was going to his wife Khadijah and telling her first of his encounter with the angel Jibril. While he was unsure of the vision, she reassured him that God (Allah) would never be untruthful to him. That was his burden of proof, brother. If this were the basis by which Christianity “stood on its own two feet,” Christianity would not have survived past the 3rd century.

@mikee_marshall @korrathetaymi And that’s exactly why Allah sent the Qur’an as a criterion to distinguish truth from falsehood. For us Muslims, the Qur’an is sufficient for us. It’s stands on its own two feet with zero error and contradictions. Unfortunately, the same can’t be said about your bible.

The problem here is a misunderstanding of each role within the Trinity and how they uniquely reveal themselves throughout time. Each person within the Trinity plays a unique role and has a unique relationship with humanity throughout history. One attribute of God emphasized in Islam is His greatness and power, also referred to as His omnipotence in Christianity. If God is so great and powerful, why would it be illogical or impossible for Him to reveal Himself as three separate persons throughout time, thereby revealing Himself as a triune God?

Christianity can sometimes be difficult to understand. You tell me Jesus is God. You tell me Jesus created heaven and earth. You tell me Jesus was the God of both the Old and New Testament. So when I ask, "Why did Jesus command the killing of the firstborn in Egypt? Why did Jesus tell the Israelites to destroy entire nations, including women, children, and animals?" The answer is always: "That was the Old Testament." But if Jesus is truly God and the God of the Old Testament, then how is it suddenly not Jesus anymore when the difficult verses come up? 🤔

Well, where this falls apart, as I have stated in many arguments, is that in order for Islam to work there must be a denial of history. Case in point, many Islamic scholars blame the worship of Jesus as God on the apostle Paul; however, many Jews were worshipping Him as God years before Paul’s conversion. Furthermore, Islamic tradition teaches that Jesus was never crucified (some scholars even claim it was a look-alike on the cross), however almost all historians agree that Jesus was indeed crucified. In order for Islam to work, you have to constantly jump through faulty historical loopholes claiming that Jesus never made claims to be the pre-existent God. In fact, He was stoned, flogged, and eventually killed for that very reason: blasphemy.

@mikee_marshall @dawahxdialogues Are you okay? Allah has absolute supremacy. He is God Almighty. Jesus is just a man & His Prophet. We worship Allah and follow the guide He sent. By virtue of following Muhammad ﷺ- we are following all previous prophets because the message never changed. Worship God alone.

This is a somewhat good point, however it crumbles apart as Islamic tradition teaches that the Injil was never preserved in its true form; therefore, much of what is believed to have been taught is based on hearsay. Now, if that argument holds, then by your own standards it is fallacious. Further, if Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John all contain segments of the Injil but had later additions that distorted them (which many Islamic scholars believe), then that very argument defeats your argument about the Injil, which also wasn’t preserved in its true form.

@mikee_marshall @korrathetaymi The Injil given to Jesus and the Torah given to Moses. Not your Mark, Luke and John. No such names in Palestine

@SalHumbles @dawahxdialogues Do you follow Jesus or do you follow Allah? If you follow both then who has supremacy over whom?

@mikee_marshall @dawahxdialogues You made 0 points here. 4:152: "As for those who believe in Allah and His messengers -accepting all; rejecting none - He will surely give them their rewards. And Allah is All-Forgiving, Most Merciful." We are the true followers of Jesus by virtue of being Muslim.

@MasterMaliq I agree with this. Though I do not agree with the core tenants of Islam - no one is benefited by the throwing of stones.

They attack Muhammad. We honour Jesus. They insult our Prophet. We still respect theirs. That difference says a lot.