/hɑns ˈpitɚ ˈbledl̩/

Play concept: Romeo and Juliet, only their families are LCMS and WELS in Verona, WI.

Today I launched a digital play publishing service geared toward classical and parochial institutions. We publish faithful retellings of classic stories, along with Biblical accounts. If you’re interested, I’m linking it in a subtweet.

@HansFiene The age old struggle.

Trying to figure out how to start a theater summer camp that doesn't let in theater kids...

Well, funny enough, the Preus brothers were ELS during the 50s, and campaigned for us to cut fellowship with Missouri when they saw what was happening in it. Following that split, they both left the ELS and joined the LCMS and ended up gaining prominence in the LCMS, which allowed them to do a lot of clean-up work during the Seminex period. I don’t really see the splits of the Synodical Conference as a failing, but rather a mechanism to properly hold brothers accountable while allowing laymen to mostly go about their normal lives.

@prosandhans @AmerRef1517 I think in retrospect that ended up being a bad recommendation though, as now the ELS and LCMS are further from unity than they were at that time. I don’t think it’s the act of merging that’s an issue, but the people involved certainly can be, which I think we saw in the ELCA

This LCMS/AALC drama is goofy, and it’s frankly ridiculous that the AALC is an autonomous church body in the first place, this isn’t 1800s America anymore, we should strive for nation-wide Lutheran unity both doctrinally and, yes, institutionally.

Sure. I’m still more inclined to maintain separate bodies — this was the advice the LCMS gave to the ELS in 1917; they initially wanted to join the LCMS following an overly-hasty merger of Norwegian Synods, which of course ended up being a large contributing body of the ELCA when that was formed. However, that’s a decision for much, much later.

@prosandhans @AmerRef1517 Agreed as far as unity goes, things are headed in an advantageous direction. I’m speaking to the fear many Lutherans have of pursuing this goal at all in my original post, the inclination to separate rather than persist and reform needs to be fixed among conservative Christians

@based_white_boy @AmerRef1517 The ELS, WELS, and LCMS have already been traveling said road for like 10 years informally. This is the time it takes, and I think we need to get comfortable with it. And that’s assuming everything goes perfectly, which it almost certainly won’t.

@prosandhans @AmerRef1517 I don’t disagree with anything you’ve said, I guess I’m just more optimistic. I think this is an achievable goal, and while I don’t think it needs to take decades, I agree that it will be a long road. But the length of the road must not hinder us from traveling it.

Loyalties would not just magically go away in a large institution. In fact, a large institution would probably exacerbate the split loyalties even more. I know you belittled the cultural constitutions of synods, but they’re a real thing and they’re rooted in decades of cultivation over time. To completely bypass those foundations would shake up governance structures that could lead to a lot of tensions and resentment in the early formation of a new institution, assuming everyone goes along with it in the first place. If a large institution like that ends up failing, it could do a lot more harm to souls than good. If a large institution is the end goal, that is legitimately a good and noble desire, but it’s something that would first require fellowship between autonomous bodies first, with numerous decades of conversation before uniting under one banner. I think we need to temper our expectations.

@prosandhans @AmerRef1517 We need to stop letting fear of what other institutions have done hinder us from organizing effectively. Autonomous bodies with a “common mission” only ever ends in separation, because loyalty is always split when things get hard, and separation is easier than fixing issues.

This was the idea behind having a synodical conference while still maintaining individual synods. Some churches would even post “Synodical Conference” outside their church, rather than what their specific synodical affiliation was. Autonomous bodies offer at least some level of checks and balances in a way that a big singular institution wouldn’t, and that’s a good thing in case a larger institution begins to head down a bad path. Additionally, so much would get bogged down by administrationalism that the chief function of a mega institution would get muddied. To stay distinct while striving for unity is the wiser way to handle it.

@AmerRef1517 So they should be in a unified body with the LCMS and present overtures to resolve the woman problem at convention (also the LCMS has multiple overtures looking to repeal women’s suffrage submitted for this year so they wouldn’t be alone in their thinking)

@raasch_bg @DanaWessel I actually haven’t had their wings before. Lol. 3rd Street Tavern has great wings though.

@prosandhans @DanaWessel Great suggestion, the barbecue there is amazing, the wings are unremarkable, ironically unremarkable considering their name is wing king

I'm craving some BBQ. Where in the Twin Cities should I go?

@becomelutheran I definitely understand what you’re saying, but it’d probably be best to work something out behind closed doors and then make a joint report on what happened.

@prosandhans That's why I said "high level representatives." I meant like the president or vice president. People that can truly speak authoritatively on behalf of the synod. We don't need more "opinion content" thrown about

I think the next step is clear: A special 2-hour presentation hosted by Issues, Etc. where one or multiple high level representatives from the LCMS and AALC lay out the issues in detail and address them. Public, good-faith dialogue to move forward and squash internet speculation

@becomelutheran I guess I mean more along the lines of the social media discourse of those who are not pastors, sort of like today I guess. Idk, it’s not really an issue affecting my synod. Praying for you guys.

@prosandhans As long as they are actual representatives from each synod I think it would lead to the opposite. But I don't think it will happen. Just trying to bringing some levity and positive thoughts to the matter hopefully

@account_plain @TimMcGovern18 I had a number of religion profs in college say the ELS and LCMS are in beer fellowship. 😂

@prosandhans @TimMcGovern18 Yes, but are you in beer fellowship? 🤣

I genuinely think WELS is correct on the doctrine of Church Fellowship and their position helps avoid confusion on the matter.

@TimMcGovern18 @account_plain Yeah, we’re a little too small to make a significant footprint on X, but I dig these conversations for this reason! God bless.

@prosandhans @account_plain Agreed! If we lived nearby I would say let's get together! But you're in MN and I'm in MI, so not easily feasible.....lol. I've learned a lot on here about LCMS, but little about ELS - although I'm roughly equidistant from my WELS church and an ELS church that I've attended

Yes, very much case by case. To sum it up (very crudely, and probably somewhat uncharitably), it seems the WELS loves following systems, and the ELS loves discretion. And I say that based on other non-fellowship related topics that would probably be best discussed over a beer and not on Twitter.

@prosandhans @account_plain I would imagine it's all on a case-by-case basis. And, like I said, maybe the WELS position is not as absolute as I've thought. I have a hard time believing that WELS and ELS would differ much at all on their positions in this area.

@TimMcGovern18 @account_plain There are cases where LCMS members (or CLC, even) may play for chapel services at the college, but I’m not certain of how frequent this happens elsewhere. There isn’t a hard line drawn on it.

@prosandhans @account_plain I didn't know that ELS had a different practice on this than WELS. And maybe I'm wrong on my understanding of it too. Would ELS allow a non-member to play organ, etc during worship? (Just curious- not being confrontational)

If it’s standard practice, then there are a number of congregations out of compliance. I haven’t really heard great reasoning behind it ever. The answer I usually get is, “because they’re helping lead the church service,” but this reasoning is very murky and only leads to more questions. Is the organist leading the service? If the organist is leading the service, why can the organist be a woman? Why are there women in the choir? Etc. This is a big difference between the ELS and WELS.

@prosandhans @account_plain As far as I know, what you said about solos/choirs is standard practice in WELS. I think we all agree that a line has to be drawn somewhere, but disagree on exactly where. Are we wrong? Maybe.

@SethGeorgson @account_plain Idk. I think the “because I said so” approach is far more damaging than what it may seem like on the surface. I have a number of issues with the WELS, in a way that a brother might get annoyed with his siblings. A big issue I have is a lack of lay education on these nuances.

@prosandhans @account_plain Nuance requires maturity and wisdom. It takes a great deal of patient instruction for people to understand fellowship well. It's not ideal, but sometimes like a parent we say, "Just don't, because I said so!"

I actually think they’ve made an idol out of fellowship. Their largest congregation’s across town and I have some friends who grew up CLC. They famously don’t let people join Thrivent, and I know of a lot of people who left the church entirely because they err on legalism. Their identity is wrapped up in it and it’s one of the major reasons they will never rejoin with the ELS/WELS. Imo, there are some WELS congregations that take it too far too, where they won’t let non-WELS members solo/sing in church choirs, so I don’t think it’s perfect by any means and I have my irritations with them over it. Generally speaking though, it offers clearer guidelines.

@TimMcGovern18 @prosandhans Yes. That's about all I know as well. Their statement on church fellowship is rather good though

Could be a two way street. Is it possible the AALC underestimated the amount of time it takes a behemoth like the LCMS to make administrational moves? I could certainly see there being some incongruity in what each synod considers the “correct” statute of limitations when rostering those pastors. Either way, weird situation; happy to be ELS. I pray both synods get it figured out.

I’m all for Orthopraxy. But I’m also for prudence and understanding that sometimes we just need to be a little patient, and not push the envelope too far too fast. Maybe this is just my current effective politics hobby horse talking.