Robb

“For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse.” (Rom 1:20)

Hebrew repetitive parallelism for emphasis, both are judgments on the overripe withered. 14:7 says the hour of his judgment has come. 14:15 says the hour to reap has come. The harvest is of the overripe/withered. This is judgment. Simple test. Do a search on χηραίνω and see if it’s ever used positively for a good harvest or in a good way. It literally means to dry up completely. If you can, search it out in the LXX as well. See how it’s consistently used. Very clearly in Jn 15 John uses the same word to describe someone who has withered and will be cut off and burned in the fire. “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.” (Jhn 15:6) Same author, same word, same result.

@robbwa7 @wirecrab99 @god_came_down Yes, Christianity will be withering on the vine when Jesus returns. Just like in the days of Noah and Lot. Jesus reaps in v16 and another angel reaps in v19 Only the vine of the earth in v19 gets cast into the winepress of the wrath of God.

PreTribulationism’s presuppositions that “because Jesus opens the Seals it MUST be God’s wrath” , stumble and FALL at Revelation 6:9-11. 1️⃣The dialogue between God and the martyrs AND THEIR FELLOW BELIEVERS YET TO BE MARTYRED means that God’s Wrath is definitely NOT yet occurring at the 5th Seal. 2️⃣If the 5th Seal really was God’s wrath then 6:9-11 becomes utterly ridiculous. 🚨That would mean God is killing His own Saints and the Author of evil, which is heretical. 🚨When the Martyrs ask God,”How long before you judge the earth and avenge our blood?” That would mean they are asking God to avenge their blood at His own doing! Ridiculous! There can be NO RATIONAL EXPLANATION PreTrib theory can give to the literal interpretation of the Fifth seal. The Only eschatological interpretation of Revelation that makes sense of the Fifth Seal is PreWrath.

Very strange conclusion. No one is saying that every trial and tribulation someone goes through is Gods wrath. The four judgments that the seal judgments refer back to (sword, famine, pestilence, beasts) are specifically called Gods wrath in the OT when judging the unbelieving Jews. In Rev, those same four judgments are now applied to the whole earth instead of just Israel and are identified as the wrath of the Lamb in 6:17. Pretty straightforward.

The Primary difference and perhaps strength of PreWrath is that we differentiate between chastisement and wrath. The primary weakness and Biblical failure of PreTribulationism is perhaps that it unbiblically calls all tribulations God’s wrath, which cannot be supported by scripture or logic. So to you, all tribulations are God’s wrath and judgment? PreTribulationism does not distinguish between CHASTENING and WRATH. 19 “As many as I love, I rebuke and ✅CHASTEN. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.” Revelation 3:19,20 Leviticus 26:27-32 27 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me, 28 then I also will walk contrary to you in fury; and I, even I, will ✅CHASTISE you 7️⃣seven times for your sins. 29 You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters. 30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols; and My soul shall abhor you. 31 I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your sweet aromas. 32 I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.”

@god_came_down @wirecrab99 @CauseToKnow Why would you jump to that conclusion?

So to you, all tribulations are God’s wrath and judgment? PreTribulationism does not distinguish between CHASTENING and WRATH. 19 “As many as I love, I rebuke and ✅CHASTEN. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 “Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me.” Revelation 3:19,20 Leviticus 26:27-32 27 ‘And after all this, if you do not obey Me, but walk contrary to Me, 28 then I also will walk contrary to you in fury; and I, even I, will ✅CHASTISE you 7️⃣seven times for your sins. 29 You shall eat the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat the flesh of your daughters. 30 I will destroy your high places, cut down your incense altars, and cast your carcasses on the lifeless forms of your idols; and My soul shall abhor you. 31 I will lay your cities waste and bring your sanctuaries to desolation, and I will not smell the fragrance of your sweet aromas. 32 I will bring the land to desolation, and your enemies who dwell in it shall be astonished at it.”

Except Mt 24:29-31 is not talking about a rapture to heaven, but a regathering of the Jews to Jerusalem after Jesus returns. No rapture to heaven after the Tribulation. Jesus isn’t pausing on his way down for months until he touches down. “And it shall come to pass in that day That the LORD will thresh, From the channel of the River to the Brook of Egypt; And you will be gathered one by one, O you children of Israel. So it shall be in that day: The great trumpet will be blown; They will come, who are about to perish in the land of Assyria, And they who are outcasts in the land of Egypt, And shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.” (Isa 27:12-13) “He will set up a banner for the nations, And will assemble the outcasts of Israel, And gather together the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth.” (Isa 11:12) “If any of you are driven out to the farthest parts under heaven, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you. Then the LORD your God will bring you to the land which your fathers possessed, and you shall possess it. He will prosper you and multiply you more than your fathers.” (Deu 30:4-5) “And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.” (Mat 24:31)

@robbwa7 @BohanTheRefiner @god_came_down @CauseToKnow And the context is this is spoken at a threshold event (the cosmic signs) that Jesus himself said is when He would gather his elect and then you see the “great multitude… out of the great tribulation” appearing in heaven. The context is undeniable

Fair enough, I could have said that better. The constative aorist looks at the whole of events, summarizing all the judgments and presenting them all as a collective whole, not when those events take place, past, present or future. The point of the counter argument was by saying “who can stand,” that points only to the future, so the previous seals would not be included. My point was it does look back at past events if they are part of the whole (wrath judgments), which includes the past events in Rev 6, but not just those events but also all future trumpets and bowls, as they also are wrath judgments. Thanks for letting me clarify my thought there.

@robbwa7 @BohanTheRefiner @god_came_down @CauseToKnow Robb - I’ll be honest, I feel like you’re the only one stuck here. Previously you’ve argued that the constative Aorist “looking back and summoning” and now you’re correctly stating the aorist “doesn’t look back”. The context determines the starting point, not the verb.

Last point: Rev 11:18, has come, also constative sense. Notice it isn’t present or future tense in these passages, like you get with Jesus’ “I will come” or “I am coming quickly” statements in Rev. No present or future tense in 6:17 either. Aorist. I think that’s significant in including past judgments within the collective whole of wrath judgments when a better support for your position would have been for him to simply say “the wrath is coming” or “the wrath will come.” He doesn’t use those tenses though. Significant.

@robbwa7 @god_came_down @CauseToKnow

Next is God responsible 5th Seal: Is God responsible for the killing and suffering of the believing remnant when he had Babylon conquer, kill and take into captivity the unbelieving Jews as a judgment from his wrath? The believers were caught up in the judgment of the unbelievers, so is God responsible for their death and suffering? Same scenario in the Trib. Believers are caught up in the global consequences from the Lamb’s judgments. Is he wicked for judging the world? Is He wicked for using the AC? Is He wicked for allowing the AC to overcome the saints for 3.5 years? “It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.” (Rev 13:7)

Next Joel. The DotL is used for different events and time frames depending on context. It may refer to the specific day Jesus returns or to the whole period of Gods judgments during the 70th week or to Gods judgments/blessings in general. You’re applying the one use to all contexts. You mentioned Babylon earlier. That was also called the DotL (ex Zep 1:14-18), where God used another king as His agent of judgment on Israel, which is a type of what’s to come with the Antichrist, matching the seals except on a global scale instead of just Israel. Point, the DotL applies to both a long period of judgment and also the specific day of the return. Joel 2:31-32 is clearly referring to His return to Jerusalem.

Circular, no. The context tells you they are also wrath. The Lamb releases the judgments at the beginning, so we know they are the Lamb’s judgments, and when the series is complete is says the day of His (the Lamb’s) wrath has come very logically refers back to what was released by the Lamb. 6:1 - when the Lamb opened one of the seals 3 - when He opened the second - sword (OT called God’s wrath) 5 - when He opened the third - famine (God’s wrath) 7 - when He opened the fourth - pestilence, beasts (God’s wrath) 9 - when He opened the fifth 12 - when He opened the sixth 16 - hide us from the WRATH OF THE LAMB (now God’s wrath applied to the Lamb) -then- 17 - for the great day of His wrath has come. Seems very straightforward to me, not circular.

Second point, the word “come” is the bookend that’s then applied to the wrath having come. I don’t believe any of the trumpets have wrath either as a descriptor but we both believe those are also wrath, correct? I think this is to emphasize the finishing/completion aspect of the bowls, so they are specifically called the bowls of wrath to emphasize the completion of the Lamb’s wrath.

First point, that wasn’t my point, simply that they are called God’s wrath, period. So when John describes the first four seals with those judgments, the reader who knows the OT, especially Jews, will immediately get they are judgments of God’s wrath, now being applied to the Lamb. He’s also equating the Lamb with God when he does this.

@CauseToKnow @wirecrab99 @god_came_down Rev 14:15 matches Jn 15:6 in meaning.

Actually if you look at the word ripe, they are overripe (ξηραίνω), as in with evil. It’s always used negatively, as in withered away. Just search G3583 and you’ll see what I mean. It couldn’t be the rapture of saints there. It’s not Jesus reaping the good and the angel the bad, it’s a double reaping of the bad for emphasis. Some examples: “But when the sun was up they were scorched, and because they had no root they withered away.” (Mat 13:6) “And He entered the synagogue again, and a man was there who had a withered hand.” (Mrk 3:1) “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.” (Jhn 15:6) “And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe (withered/overripe)."” (Rev 14:15)

Those are the dead martyrs from the tribulation. They are identified in other passages but most clearly in 7:14. “After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands…And I said to him, "Sir, you know." So he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.” (Rev 7:9,14) “When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held…Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.” (Rev 6:9,11) “And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” (Rev 20:4)

@robbwa7 @wirecrab99 @CauseToKnow How did the great multitudes get to heaven in Revelation 7:9-17? What does scripture tell us about how souls ascend to heaven to inherit immortality bodily?

@BohanTheRefiner @god_came_down @wirecrab99 @CauseToKnow There are still the trumpet and bowl judgments ahead. The constative aorist doesn’t look backward, it’s just looking at the whole of the wrath (all judgments) as a single event within the day or time period. Who can stand the Lamb’s wrath as a general statement.

The remainder of the verse states: “and who is able to stand.” It doesn’t state: who WAS able to stand. The answer to “who IS able to stand” is in chapter 7. None of this ⬇️ happens until the 6th seal is opened. Which means His wrath hasn’t come until after the 6th seal is open.

@CauseToKnow @wirecrab99 @god_came_down You could say the reaping phase of Gods wrath it’s about to start. That matches 15:1 but still has the previous judgments of wrath (seals, trumpets) that cause the completed hardening in mind as well.

Good point, but that doesn’t carry over into every instance where ἦλθεν is used. Context must be used to determine the meaning, which is why you can’t say “is at hand”, ἐγγίζω, is interchangeable with ἦλθεν in every instance, as in Rev 6:17. Even with the support of Mt 26, both have the Son of Man is being (actively unfolding) betrayed statements, so the betrayal is actively already in progress before the kiss, but about to be realized by everyone when the kiss happens. But concerning the ingressive v constative categories, context is what’s used for determining which use is meant. For example, if I say about the coach of the Seattle Seahawks, “Mike Macdonald’s time has come,” after having an incredible year capped by winning the Super Bowl, that doesn’t mean his time is about to come. It means it came and will continue into the future. The previous notable wins during the entire season was what was in my mind (constative). But if I said that about him a couple years ago just as Macdonald was first hired as a head coach, that would imply only a future expectation of success (proleptic) or immediate success that season (ingressive). Context. ἦλθεν alone is aorist, which is simply translated as past tense in most cases, “came,”so the literal definition for Rev 6:17 is “the day of His wrath came.” It’s not translated that way because of the context it’s being used in, which is why in 6:17 all the seal judgments having been released by the Lamb just prior to the statement is highly relevant in how to take the meaning in 6:17. As to Rev 14, the previous judgments helped to ripen the harvest, caused the completion of the hardening of the earth dwellers, and now the culminating reaping has come. The constative aorist use is in effect but highlighting the completing act of Gods wrath with the bowls. Rev 15 is a good verse to help show that. The wrath is finished, or completed with the bowls, NOT STARTED, meaning prior wrath has happened.

That’s why you take all the contextual markers to get the meaning. 1. The Lamb opens the seals (6:1) -> the wrath of the Lamb has come (6:17). 2. The first four “come and see” statements -> “has come” statement (6:17). 3. All 4 judgments (sword, famine, pestilence, beasts) called Gods wrath in OT passages -> the Lambs wrath. 4. Last of the consecutive series of judgments leads to the summative statement the day of His wrath has come.

@robbwa7 @god_came_down @wirecrab99 Satan imitates God - "Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light" (2 Cor 11:14). We can't ascribe acts to God simply because he has done them in the past. Especially when Rev 6:12-17 describes Jesus appearing in heaven and men hiding because the day of his wrath is come

@god_came_down @wirecrab99 @CauseToKnow What is the cure for being condescending?

What is the cure for being addicted to presuppositions? I’ve mostly debated PreTribulationists that are so accustomed to the use of presupposition that when I give scripture in plain English, they often respond in Greek! Apparently the plain translation doesn’t quite fit in its original form? Greek manipulation allows PreTribulationism fit that square peg in the round whole. I’m curious. Revelation 22:18,19 means what to you Robb?