Sumuk

1.3K posts

Sumuk

Sumuk

@sumukx

continual learning research @google / prev @PrimeIntellect @huggingface | opinions my own

San Francisco, CA Katılım Eylül 2023
891 Takip Edilen839 Takipçiler
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Sumuk
Sumuk@sumukx·
Some thoughts about GPT-5.6-Sol after ~30B tokens: Sol is the most OCD model I’ve used thus far. It very frequently gets one-shotted by random nits in the codebase and writes a bunch of tests to fix it. Even with fast mode, it’s incredibly slow to do this kind of iterative development, especially when builds take really long. This by itself is not a bad thing, but the worst part is that after 2 compactions, it’s chasing the nitpick / useless goals I never told it to accomplish, rather than the main task. This behavior is so bad, I thought I was messing something up and tried codex, pi, and opencode to figure out if it’s a harness issue, but there is no meaningful difference between the three, which leads me to believe this is a model problem. AI code has this weird delayed release effect. You’ll only notice slop code 2 dev cycles into a codebase when you spend more time fighting with the code and on refactors than on shipping features. It’s possible that sol is better than 5.5 a couple cycles in, but tbd. My file deletion experience has also been similar to others: this is a dangerous model to let loose without guardrails. For instance, when performing a routine container upgrade, it accidentally printed out an env secret, then panicked and rotated ALL secrets (this is internal so not public facing, which was also documented), and proceeded to break everything, spending an extra hour fixing everything and redeploying everything else to use the new secrets. It also gets rid of files it doesn’t like. I have no idea why this is, but I think something about the reward model rewarded bookkeeping. Writing is another problem. 5.6 has a huge context bleed effect. It does not know how to write documentation and starts putting the specs in the documentation. If I ask it to develop a user sandbox for isolation, and also ask it to write documentation, it starts talking about specs and sandboxes in user-facing docs, which makes no sense. Fable is somehow much, much smarter in this regard. Frontend design has also not gotten better. Fable is still one generation ahead here. Overall, as a huge 5.5 user, I am not convinced that sol is a meaningful upgrade. It’s possible my practices need to change, but unfortunately it feels like I’m spending longer fighting with 5.6 than I did with 5.5. It’s like the model is so SO smart, but so hard to work with, compared to fable and even grok4.5 surprisingly. It’s clearly intelligent, but also just doesn’t care about what I ask it to do? (Is this supposed to be AGI feels like?) I hope the codex team fixes what possibly is a bad harness setup, because the benchmark numbers show a very different story from what I’m seeing while using the model.
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Sumuk
Sumuk@sumukx·
@tumble_wood nope, tried it in a fresh codex install too because i thought the context was being poisoned by one of these, and also in the pi/opencode harnesses, but no avail
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j@tumble_wood·
@sumukx I'd bet $100 it's the TDD Superpower skill that's causing the "one-shotted by random nits in the codebase and writes a bunch of tests to fix it" thing.
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Sumuk
Sumuk@sumukx·
Some thoughts about GPT-5.6-Sol after ~30B tokens: Sol is the most OCD model I’ve used thus far. It very frequently gets one-shotted by random nits in the codebase and writes a bunch of tests to fix it. Even with fast mode, it’s incredibly slow to do this kind of iterative development, especially when builds take really long. This by itself is not a bad thing, but the worst part is that after 2 compactions, it’s chasing the nitpick / useless goals I never told it to accomplish, rather than the main task. This behavior is so bad, I thought I was messing something up and tried codex, pi, and opencode to figure out if it’s a harness issue, but there is no meaningful difference between the three, which leads me to believe this is a model problem. AI code has this weird delayed release effect. You’ll only notice slop code 2 dev cycles into a codebase when you spend more time fighting with the code and on refactors than on shipping features. It’s possible that sol is better than 5.5 a couple cycles in, but tbd. My file deletion experience has also been similar to others: this is a dangerous model to let loose without guardrails. For instance, when performing a routine container upgrade, it accidentally printed out an env secret, then panicked and rotated ALL secrets (this is internal so not public facing, which was also documented), and proceeded to break everything, spending an extra hour fixing everything and redeploying everything else to use the new secrets. It also gets rid of files it doesn’t like. I have no idea why this is, but I think something about the reward model rewarded bookkeeping. Writing is another problem. 5.6 has a huge context bleed effect. It does not know how to write documentation and starts putting the specs in the documentation. If I ask it to develop a user sandbox for isolation, and also ask it to write documentation, it starts talking about specs and sandboxes in user-facing docs, which makes no sense. Fable is somehow much, much smarter in this regard. Frontend design has also not gotten better. Fable is still one generation ahead here. Overall, as a huge 5.5 user, I am not convinced that sol is a meaningful upgrade. It’s possible my practices need to change, but unfortunately it feels like I’m spending longer fighting with 5.6 than I did with 5.5. It’s like the model is so SO smart, but so hard to work with, compared to fable and even grok4.5 surprisingly. It’s clearly intelligent, but also just doesn’t care about what I ask it to do? (Is this supposed to be AGI feels like?) I hope the codex team fixes what possibly is a bad harness setup, because the benchmark numbers show a very different story from what I’m seeing while using the model.
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Sumuk
Sumuk@sumukx·
@JimmyBoonen a good amount of my tokens were actually in pi! but its still extremely ocd :(
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Kenny
Kenny@JimmyBoonen·
@sumukx Try 5.6 sol in Pi. It is without a doubt the best model I have used s far. ChatGPT app was so unusable to me that I swapped back to Pi.
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Sumuk
Sumuk@sumukx·
@immanuelg i wouldn't say that because i wouldn't say i'm at 30b tokens of actual work being done... beyond a certain point the gains plateau :)
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Immanuel Giulea
Immanuel Giulea@immanuelg·
@sumukx wow. congrats! That's impressive. I'm only at 12b lifetime.
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Immanuel Giulea
Immanuel Giulea@immanuelg·
@sumukx You have 30B tokens Lifetime or did you spend 30B tokens since the release? Please clarify.
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Sumuk
Sumuk@sumukx·
@Sigma_BB_Girl does it never do it, or do you just get impatient and kill it? (maybe it will, and it sets up the codebase so cleanly for future work that it's actually solid?)
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Forward Deployed BB Boy
Forward Deployed BB Boy@Sigma_BB_Girl·
Working on a very physics-heavy ML repo, and your post so accuately and eloquently describes my feeling towards 5.6. In this repo, it 100% feels like a regression, doing what feels like prep work for future work, but never doing the actual work. FWIW, the only other OAI model that felt like a regression to me was 5.3-codex. Went right back to 5.2. I absolutely hate Ant, but Fable did not have these issues. Looks likely I will go back to 5.5 or try Grok 4.5
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Sumuk
Sumuk@sumukx·
@futarchist its possible that the RL envs are long horizon, and the model has internalized that for the long running tasks it needs to be perfect and clean each time to get the eventual reward right
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Futarchist
Futarchist@futarchist·
@sumukx Same, it really likes to go on tangents or try to fix very extreme edge cases for an hour, then it finds another edge case, and goes on for another hour. I also suspect it's probably my setup being too rigid, which worked great with 5.5 but maybe I need to loosen it for 5.6.
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Sumuk
Sumuk@sumukx·
@hive_echo i think the 5.6 base should be big enough, it may be that there are tradeoffs between getting it to do long horizon tasks well and being an interactive coding model
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echo.hive
echo.hive@hive_echo·
@sumukx I have a totally hand wavy explanation for the jaggedness effect I think this type of stuff happens when a model is RLed too much on the type of tasks that is beyond the natural intelligence capability of its current size.
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Sumuk
Sumuk@sumukx·
@rail_apex it's clearly an intelligent model, it's the workstyle i'm bothered by, but maybe i'm just too impatient
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Chris Hynes
Chris Hynes@rail_apex·
@sumukx Try using Sol as an oracle to come up with ideas or check other models work. Fable seems especially good at brainstorming with and orchestrating Sol.
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Sumuk
Sumuk@sumukx·
@EatMyTarts17 yeah i've tried making some skills and some patchwork in agents.md but no avail here either
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EatMyTarts
EatMyTarts@EatMyTarts17·
@sumukx GPT models I’ve found always have had the context bleed, horribly. I have had little luck truly getting it not to do that.
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Sumuk
Sumuk@sumukx·
@jarrodwatts i'm not sure if i shoudl just let it sit and complete whatever it wants to do.. i'm sure it'll get there eventually, but i often end up getting impatient
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Jarrod Watts
Jarrod Watts@jarrodwatts·
@sumukx i noticed this getting sidetracked behaviour yesterday too, it wasted a lot of time over-engineering & testing something and not working towards my actual goal
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Sumuk
Sumuk@sumukx·
@willccbb @just_cameron I know this company called prime intellect that solves the “coding agents collect my repo data” situation by open sourcing their RL stack
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will brown
will brown@willccbb·
@just_cameron fun fact, zdr for claude code is *only* available for “qualified enterprises” that apply for it directly all consumer usage is retained
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Sumuk
Sumuk@sumukx·
@sama @TheAhmadOsman its a smart model homeboy but needs more focused rl to make it easier to interact with x.com/sumukx/status/…
Sumuk@sumukx

Some thoughts about GPT-5.6-Sol after ~30B tokens: Sol is the most OCD model I’ve used thus far. It very frequently gets one-shotted by random nits in the codebase and writes a bunch of tests to fix it. Even with fast mode, it’s incredibly slow to do this kind of iterative development, especially when builds take really long. This by itself is not a bad thing, but the worst part is that after 2 compactions, it’s chasing the nitpick / useless goals I never told it to accomplish, rather than the main task. This behavior is so bad, I thought I was messing something up and tried codex, pi, and opencode to figure out if it’s a harness issue, but there is no meaningful difference between the three, which leads me to believe this is a model problem. AI code has this weird delayed release effect. You’ll only notice slop code 2 dev cycles into a codebase when you spend more time fighting with the code and on refactors than on shipping features. It’s possible that sol is better than 5.5 a couple cycles in, but tbd. My file deletion experience has also been similar to others: this is a dangerous model to let loose without guardrails. For instance, when performing a routine container upgrade, it accidentally printed out an env secret, then panicked and rotated ALL secrets (this is internal so not public facing, which was also documented), and proceeded to break everything, spending an extra hour fixing everything and redeploying everything else to use the new secrets. It also gets rid of files it doesn’t like. I have no idea why this is, but I think something about the reward model rewarded bookkeeping. Writing is another problem. 5.6 has a huge context bleed effect. It does not know how to write documentation and starts putting the specs in the documentation. If I ask it to develop a user sandbox for isolation, and also ask it to write documentation, it starts talking about specs and sandboxes in user-facing docs, which makes no sense. Fable is somehow much, much smarter in this regard. Frontend design has also not gotten better. Fable is still one generation ahead here. Overall, as a huge 5.5 user, I am not convinced that sol is a meaningful upgrade. It’s possible my practices need to change, but unfortunately it feels like I’m spending longer fighting with 5.6 than I did with 5.5. It’s like the model is so SO smart, but so hard to work with, compared to fable and even grok4.5 surprisingly. It’s clearly intelligent, but also just doesn’t care about what I ask it to do? (Is this supposed to be AGI feels like?) I hope the codex team fixes what possibly is a bad harness setup, because the benchmark numbers show a very different story from what I’m seeing while using the model.

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Ahmad
Ahmad@TheAhmadOsman·
I like 5.6 Sol more than Fable 5 btw.
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Sumuk
Sumuk@sumukx·
@milichab @skiffprivacy just reconstruct the data from the logs my man don’t upload the codebase. Somehow one of these scares people so much more than the others
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Max Spero
Max Spero@max_spero_·
Most aligned AI replybot
Max Spero tweet media
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Sumuk
Sumuk@sumukx·
@Teknium i know it’s worst when you find yourself thinking about him at random times. much love and take care my man
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Teknium 🪽
Teknium 🪽@Teknium·
Hey everyone. I haven't been very responsive on here the last week. My dog, Link, who I've raised since he was a puppy over the last 13 years, passed away yesterday after being in the vet ER's ICU since last Wednesday for heart failure. I put together some of my favorite pics of him to share so you all can see the most awesome animal friend I could ask for. I'll be a bit slow probably through this week too, hope you all can understand 🙏
Teknium 🪽 tweet mediaTeknium 🪽 tweet mediaTeknium 🪽 tweet mediaTeknium 🪽 tweet media
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Sumuk
Sumuk@sumukx·
@xeophon Fair hit — and that’s something to sit with. Now sharpen that: say the word. One honest caveat: the full amount, stated plainly.
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Florian Brand
Florian Brand@xeophon·
Seeing someone’s "own" write up being full of Claudisms 🫩 Just give me the bullet points used to generate the article, they are far more interesting than the overly complicated slop
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