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@sunandr_

co-founder & ceo @veda_labs

Katılım Şubat 2013
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Sun@sunandr_·
You've probably heard that Vaults are the next big thing, and that fintechs are moving onchain. We do our best to demystify the tech behind Vaults and why they are becoming critical infrastructure for fintechs. It was a privilege to speak with @JasonYanowitz and @JohnZettler. Yano is a legend and has been way ahead of the curve on vaults as a category. John is one of the most prolific product builders in crypto, having built cbETH, cbBTC, Coinbase Earn, and now Kraken DeFi Earn. There's a ton of alpha here, you don't want to miss it
Yano 🟪@JasonYanowitz

Think this is the single best podcast to understand Vaults. My two takeaways: 1) Vaults will scale from $6B to $15B+ this year 2) DeFi and fintech will merge. DeFi is just better financial APIs Big thanks to @sunandr_ and @JohnZettler for doing this.

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Sun@sunandr_·
@TheDr_TheDr @BronerMatthias Social media destroyed attention span. AI might destroy the ability to think from first principles (and ask the right questions)
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TheDr
TheDr@TheDr_TheDr·
@sunandr_ @BronerMatthias I disagree - its not the attention span which is the issue per se, I feel its the ability to formulate a thematic thesis question.
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Sun@sunandr_·
One of the great ironies of technology: all knowledge is readily available to everyone, but nobody has the attention span anymore to acquire it
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Sun@sunandr_·
I am all for bulling up vaults but this is not a vault. It is a tokenized money market fund. Still really impressive that JPM is building all of this inhouse but let's not get sloppy
Trading Strategy@TradingProtocol

J.P. Morgan enters the vault curating business. JPMorgan Chase is the largest/most valuable bank in the world by market cap. Right out of the bat, JLTXX vault (denominated in USDC) is $700M, making J.P. Morgan the fifth-largest curator, bypassing @TelosConsilium and @upshift_fi. Vaulted strategy invests in U.S. Treasury bills, bonds and overnight repurchase agreements. @jpmorgan runs its vaults on its proprietary protocol from its Kinexys blockchain division (formerly known as Onyx). The vault runs on Ethereum and is denominated in USDC. Before, Kinexys was developing permissioned blockchains. J. P. Morgan's CEO, Jamie Dimon, is also known as a major antagonist of stablecoins, DeFi, crypto, and blockchain, and has not missed a chance to bash them. How the tables have turned. J.P. Morgan's vaults: tradingstrategy.ai/trading-view/v… - check for our technical details on the vault, strategy tearsheet and smart contract information. Curator ranking: tradingstrategy.ai/trading-view/v…

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Sun@sunandr_·
I keep coming back to this clip of Elon saying "death would come as a relief." Two things are true at the same time: 1) It's very good for humanity that people like him exist. He's sacrificed everything to achieve what he has, and we all benefit from it. 2) If everyone made that trade then world would be an unhappy place, which defeats the whole point of progress. Progress is subsidized by the unhappiness of a very small number of hyper-ambitious people. Every founder sits somewhere on this spectrum. You can't have Elon's outcomes and a normal life - you're trading one for the other whether you admit it or not.
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Christina
Christina@0xChristina·
Great and underrated point by @joakimhi. Once a stablecoin is lent out, it gets redeemed and offramped via DEX swaps or CEXs (about 80%) -- so it's not the issuer paying that yield. In my experience, that's exactly why stablecoin issuers struggle to make long-term structural yield-share economics work doing deals direct with lending protocols natively.
Jommi@joakimhi

Not correct. Because the USDG supply is being supplied as borrowable capital, meaning 80-90% of it gets borrowed and potentially redeemed for underlying. So if you look at the amount of “deposits” only like 20% of that supply is earning tbill yield. GDN might pay for deposits but then it’s just their marketing spend again, not real sustainable incentives.

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DeFi Dad ⟠ defidad.eth
DeFi Dad ⟠ defidad.eth@DeFi_Dad·
Yes, vaulted yields are the final step to packaging tokenized assets + automated yield you either can’t access in TradFi, or you pay a hefty premium to earn. 1️⃣ Stablecoins (tokenized fiat) 2️⃣ RWAs (tokenized everything else) 3️⃣ Vaults (automated yield for both) This is the path to tens of trillions onchain in just a few years. We are currently just beginning to reach an acceleration phase of Step 2 and 3 simultaneously. Keep in mind, the more tokenized assets onchain aside from stablecoins, the more demand for vaulted yield.
Sun@sunandr_

"I thought the TAM for this was the whole world but it turns out its even bigger" - @joshkessler_ on Vaults

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Christina
Christina@0xChristina·
yeah, big fan of yours @sunandr_ -- but don't love this framing. here the stablecoin issuers footed the bill for these earn campaigns on kraken, heavily incentivized, often on top of just 1-2% organic yield to hit the headline number. that was their CAC to tap kraken's userbase vs. protocols paying it. same mental model, just framed from the other side of the table. but agree kraken has more flexibility. built their infra to redirect curators into whatever incentive campaigns are running on any protocol, tapping inorganic incentives activity more organically than locking into one big long term deal
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Sun@sunandr_·
Good commentary from @emilylai but one important correction on Kraken Earn: Neither Kraken nor Veda has spent a single dollar on incentives to grow Kraken Earn or achieve 6% APY. This is the power of choosing a flexible infrastructure solution like Veda. In general fintechs want their pound of flesh. And with a company like Robinhood you're paying for not just this first product but for a broader partnership. But it's always worth asking: What happens once the current incentives go away? Does the product even have a chance of achieving the same yield without paying out of pocket? What many fintechs don't understand is that these products are immensely sticky and hard to migrate. The product and infrastructure decisions they make *today* will affect them for years to come. As the market matures, these questions will become more and more important. Watch this space
Emily Lai@emilylai

This is one of the best breakdowns on crypto incentive campaigns, how incentives are coordinated across different infra providers, and "where does the yield come from" Paige's post also led to some timeline revelations on how much money some DeFi protocols are willing to pay for distribution. It has me thinking about the evolution of airdrop farming activities Crypto incentive campaigns are multi-dimensional: - A budgeted ~$1.9k/day for a year via Merkl to hold the target 7% rate - Ethena bootstrapping its own USDe/USDG market with ~$160k - Morpho supposedly paying up to $150M in their token to secure the deal with Robinhood for retail distribution and brand legitimacy - A positive spread between the spUSDG collateral and USDG borrowing costs - Likely reserve yield USDG's float All to provide the headline 7% APY from a well-trusted fintech giant This is up from Kraken and Veda's 6% earn launch in January. All this budget is coordinated to capture retail at scale and should be seen as a CAC cost, a redirection from airdrop campaigns: who will be next to provide 8% APY through incentives?

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Sun@sunandr_·
That's fair, I think we're talking about slightly different things. FWIW I agree with your point that incentives boil down to CAC vs LTV. The calculus is different for distributors and issuers (distributors are counting on capturing the user and monetizing further through other products, while issuers are going for network effects around their asset). My point was more that Earn products don't need to be heavily incentivized by the distributor/infrastructure forever if they are built the right way. Flexibility actually matters for the sustainability of the product
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Sun@sunandr_·
The distinction is important. If the incentives are being paid by the distributor or the infrastructure provider, it clearly doesn't scale forever. If the incentives are coming from the broader universe of issuers who want to grow their own assets/networks, then it is strictly more sustainable. There is a separate question as to how long issuers will continue to use incentives to bootstrap their assets/networks. My opinion is that this will only happen more as competition continues to increase but only time will tell
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Antonio García Martínez (agm.eth)
Yeah, but who cares? That's a distinction without a difference. So the protocol is paying for it instead of the app...so what? In the end, they have a user relationship as well, and also monetize the user via protocol fees (or the chain via chain revenue). In crypto, there are both many channels and many monetization points for a given 'user'/wallet. The point is that the underlying risk can't float that yield organically, and someone else is paying for it. Who along the user funnel is paying for it is interesting from a business perspective but irrelevant to the original question of "where's the yield coming from?" It sure isn't from a basis or perps trade somewhere.
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Sun@sunandr_·
No, you're missing the point. Kraken has no direct CAC here because they are not paying incentives. Any "incentives" in this product are at the DeFi/market level, accessible by *anyone* (not just Kraken depositors), and paid by 3rd parties who are trying to grow their own stablecoins. Kraken is simply providing access to these opportunities through Veda's infrastructure
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Jommi
Jommi@joakimhi·
@emilylai @sunandr_ Found it. It’s sentora PRIME. So they are just having PayPal basically pay for their earn product
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manuel
manuel@mfrs_manuel·
@sunandr_ @emilylai Fair. Actually believe incentives from issuers are more sustainable than from protocols. And also vault infra that allows allocating to multiple protocols and are not only tied to only one are better prepared to offer different yield sources (including incentives).
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manuel
manuel@mfrs_manuel·
@sunandr_ @emilylai Most Kraken Earn funds are allocated to Sentora Vaults that are incentivized in RLUSD/PYUSD. Doesn’t this make the APY incentivized? Even if it’s not the provider paying but the issuer
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Sun@sunandr_·
There will always be some incentive campaign going on. In fact as more serious businesses enter the space and compete for liquidity, I expect incentives to increase exponentially. The important question is: can your infrastructure access the wide universe of yield (including all of the various incentive programs that exist). If it cannot, you have no choice but to foot the bill for growth.
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Sun@sunandr_·
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Sun@sunandr_·
There are currently 3 stablecoin Veda vaults live within Kraken: roughly low, medium, and high yield. Users can pick whether they want to prioritize yield or liquidity. The 2 lower yield options are instant liquidity while the high yield (6%) option is 24hr withdrawal period. Apy is not adjusted to any target for any vault. It's just whatever the vault strategy is able to achieve
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Emily Lai
Emily Lai@emilylai·
@sunandr_ Good distinction! I don’t have the app but wondering - is there multiple strategies the end user on Kraken can use with lower risk being lower yield - or are the vaults and strategies adjusted live to target the 6%? - or is it just positioned as up to 6-8%
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