Tre

@RET_423 @Copernicus2013 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @hahussain @CliffordDMay No, Putin sending his military across the border is what caused the war, just like Trump and Netanyahu sending air strikes is what caused the current one

@tre_zen @Copernicus2013 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @hahussain @CliffordDMay I said NATO's shift to logistical war support was 2 years ago, their general support prior to that is what caused the war because they were courting Ukraine to become a member

NATO doesn’t say that each member state must consult with the alliance before engaging in war anywhere. Common sense says that when a NATO member goes to war, other members don’t give a hand to the other side. Excuse that Europeans can shut down their airspace or bases to America in wars they disagree with means America can reciprocate by choosing which European wars US decides to stand on the side of Europe or on that of its adversaries. BTW, Ukraine is not NATO and US involvement in defending it has been common sense. Not helping out in defense has also been a choice that I disagree with, but that doesn’t amount to giving Russia a hand against Ukraine. NATO’s France, Spain and Islamist Turkey have been active on Islamist Iran’s side. That’s not how military alliances work.

@RET_423 @Copernicus2013 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @hahussain @CliffordDMay No, you said they began logistical support 2 years ago, which your own follow up posts show as a lie

@tre_zen @Copernicus2013 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @hahussain @CliffordDMay I said they increased their war commitment to include battle support logistics 2 years ago while Biden was President, and they did

@RET_423 @Copernicus2013 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @hahussain @CliffordDMay You said they began 2 years ago, they began 12 years ago. Even if we go by the significant increase in 2022, that's STILL more than 2 years ago

@tre_zen @Copernicus2013 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @hahussain @CliffordDMay Greatly increased in 2022, when did the war start? 🤔

@RET_423 @Copernicus2013 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @hahussain @CliffordDMay Since 2014... like I said

@tre_zen @Copernicus2013 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @hahussain @CliffordDMay

@RET_423 @Copernicus2013 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @hahussain @CliffordDMay Logistical support is not active engagement and you fucking know it, also, logistical support began way before that

@tre_zen @Copernicus2013 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @hahussain @CliffordDMay You're quite uninformed then, NATO began logistical support 2 years ago

@RET_423 @Copernicus2013 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @hahussain @CliffordDMay Which you didn't have a problem with when it was the US doing the undermining by threatening other members

@Copernicus2013 @tre_zen @KlaartjeZoetho2 @hahussain @CliffordDMay Your own members undermining your own efforts is not foreign policy, it's allowing a traitor to your organization to act without consequence

@RET_423 @Copernicus2013 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @hahussain @CliffordDMay NATO is absolutely not actively engaged with Russia, not on Ukraine's behalf or anyone elses

@tre_zen @Copernicus2013 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @hahussain @CliffordDMay NATO is actively engaged with Russia on behalf of Ukraine at war Some members of NATO are simultaneously funding Russia's war effort & uniting with Russia in the UN to support a regime that is blocking an international shipping lane needed by NATO members NATO's cool with that

@RET_423 @Copernicus2013 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @hahussain @CliffordDMay So saying nothing means they're fine with it... when did you become a mind reader exactly? It might just be that NATO considers it none of their fucking business, because it is in fact none of their fucking business

@Copernicus2013 @tre_zen @KlaartjeZoetho2 @hahussain @CliffordDMay NATO has not uttered a single word of concern about these 3 nations, as far as NATO is concerned everything their doing is just fine Which is why we're leaving

@RET_423 @Copernicus2013 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @hahussain @CliffordDMay No, it has nothing to do with NATO, because no NATO member is attacking another NATO member and NATO is a DEFENSIVE ALLIANCE. Nothing in the NATO treaty requires members to support invasions of other countries.

@tre_zen @Copernicus2013 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @hahussain @CliffordDMay It has everything to do with NATO if 3 of their NATO members are acting against other NATO members & in the interest of enemies that NATO is fighting in Ukraine & another NATO member is fighting in the Gulf

@RET_423 @Copernicus2013 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @hahussain @CliffordDMay That is NOT what I said and you fucking know it, I said that individual nations are making their decisions on how to deal with this situation which has fuck all to do with NATO

@Copernicus2013 @tre_zen @KlaartjeZoetho2 @hahussain @CliffordDMay Member in good standing is a member not under discipline NATO has given approval to the actions of France, Spain & Italy in supporting a terrorist regime in the gulf & Russia in the UN by not disciplining them, Tre says 1 nation is protecting them so it's wrong to blame NATO 🤷

@RET_423 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @Copernicus2013 @hahussain @CliffordDMay And you keep acting like the decisions of, once again, INDIVIDUAL FUCKING COUNTRIES has anything whatsoever to do with NATO. If you want to go by that logic, NATO agreed with Trump threatening Greenland and unilaterally attacking Iran

@tre_zen @KlaartjeZoetho2 @Copernicus2013 @hahussain @CliffordDMay I understand how NATO & all allied relationships operate, I covered all this; you guys refuse to address what NATO members proactively did & try to pretend they just observed some treaty protocols No NATO rule demands denying air space to a member or supporting Terrorist Regimes

@RET_423 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @Copernicus2013 @hahussain @CliffordDMay So you despise NATO because you fundamentally don't understand how it operates, but I agree, scrap NATO, the US has demonstrated it can't be trusted as an ally so long as it is willing to elect people like Trump

@tre_zen @KlaartjeZoetho2 @Copernicus2013 @hahussain @CliffordDMay I despise NATO because NATO despises the United States, it acts like it has a right you our blood & money while scum of the earth type nations such as France are allowed carte blanche to undermine whatever they want Scrap NATO & start over

@RET_423 @Copernicus2013 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @hahussain @CliffordDMay No, you're still there because Trump fucked up bigly and has now kicked off yet another multi-year war unless he decides to tuck tail and run

@tre_zen @Copernicus2013 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @hahussain @CliffordDMay We did win, our mission was destroy the nuke program We're still there because he's deciding if he can give the Iranian citizens a little more help domestically & see if the UN will step up in the SOH If 1 or both of those happen we're in a position to help, if not we'll go

@RET_423 @Copernicus2013 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @hahussain @CliffordDMay Trump is a fucking moron that changes his mind about what his objective is every time he's asked and has already declared victory thrice

@Copernicus2013 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @tre_zen @hahussain @CliffordDMay No, Trump will be gracious to the Iranians & the UN efforts to fix the SOH permanently but he won't bribe them to do their role or let them have no skin in the game We tried that in Iraq & Afghanistan, it doesn't work & Trump is smarter than our former leaders It's their move

@RET_423 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @Copernicus2013 @hahussain @CliffordDMay NATO extends beyond Europe though doesn't it, why don't you just admit you're using the actions of individual countries to justify your hate for NATO?

@tre_zen @KlaartjeZoetho2 @Copernicus2013 @hahussain @CliffordDMay Until NATO expels France, Spain & Italy from their membership the only reasonable conclusion is that greater Europe agrees with the alliance France has formed with China, Iran, Russia, Spain, Italy & greater Islam That's the only reasonable conclusion & we can't be party to it🤷

@RET_423 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @Copernicus2013 @hahussain @CliffordDMay Really? All of Europe? Are you sure about that? Or are you once again using the actions of ONE FUCKING COUNTRY, as an excuse to spout lies and bullshit

@KlaartjeZoetho2 @Copernicus2013 @tre_zen @hahussain @CliffordDMay Europe today, as we speak, is fully funding Russia's war effort just like they have from the 1st day of the war Europe today, as we speak, is in an alliance with China & Russia at the UN to protect Iran's control over the SOH You can't change the facts, Europe empowers Russia

@models_by_Russ So what I'm reading here can basically be boiled down to "if the US says roll over we should be a good little doggy and comply". Tell me, were you a Brexit voter by any chance? If so, what happened to our sovereignty?

The UK had a choice when things kicked off. Stand properly with our closest ally… or hang back and pretend that sitting on the fence somehow looks like strength. And we chose the awkward middle ground — not quite in, not quite out, just… there. Now people will say that’s “measured” or “responsible.” But to anyone paying attention, it just looks like hesitation. Because the US isn’t just another country we occasionally agree with. It’s the backbone of NATO, the partner we lean on for intelligence, deterrence, and the kind of military weight that makes other nations think twice before doing anything stupid. Which is why this isn’t really about Iran at all. It’s about what happens if that backbone decides it’s had enough. Take the US out of NATO and what are you left with? A handful of capable countries, yes — but nothing like the same level of reach, power or deterrence. Certainly not enough to make the world’s bad actors lose sleep. And the UK? We’re good… but we’re not “replace the United States” good. Nobody in Europe is. So if Washington starts looking across the table and seeing allies who hedge, hesitate and only show up when it’s convenient, you can’t blame them for eventually asking what they’re getting out of it. That’s the bit people don’t like saying out loud. And here’s another question people dodge — if this had been any other US president, would we have been straight in, shoulder to shoulder without all the hesitation? It’s hard not to think a lot of this comes down to the fact that Western governments simply don’t like Trump. He’s not one of their usual, predictable operators, and that makes them nervous. Whether you rate him or not, that discomfort clearly plays into how willing they are to be seen standing alongside him. Instead, they reach for the Falklands. “Ah, but the Americans didn’t help us then.” Except they did — just not in the way people imagine. No Hollywood carrier group charging in, but plenty of the things that actually matter. Intelligence, logistics, weapons, and support through Ascension Island — which, yes, is British, but at the time was being run as a joint UK-US staging base. They could have made that operation far harder than it already was. They didn’t. They helped make it work. In other words, they showed up like real allies do — not for the headlines, but in ways that actually count. Which brings us back to now. Nobody’s saying we needed to blindly charge in. That’s not the point. But there’s a difference between acting independently and looking like you’re trying to keep everyone happy while committing to nothing. Alliances don’t survive on technicalities. They survive on trust. And if we start looking like the sort of country that wants the protection of NATO without ever really sticking its neck out when it matters, we shouldn’t be surprised if one day that protection starts to feel a bit… optional. Because without the US, NATO isn’t some iron shield. It’s a polite conversation. And that’s not much comfort when the world stops being polite.

@h17253 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @NunoMGA @hahussain @Copernicus2013 @CliffordDMay The only waste of bandwidth here is you with your ridiculous refusal to understand the word no

@tre_zen @KlaartjeZoetho2 @NunoMGA @hahussain @Copernicus2013 @CliffordDMay At least you are changing the subject. Let's stop wasting bandwidth.

@KlaartjeZoetho2 @NunoMGA @hahussain @Copernicus2013 @CliffordDMay Read the thread, and you'll see that I am talking about a deal on Greenland. My belief is that there will be no American attack. If you want to debate an American attack, please debate it with yourself.

@h17253 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @NunoMGA @hahussain @Copernicus2013 @CliffordDMay And now you have just revealed yourself for all to see as a troll, didn't take much did it

@tre_zen @KlaartjeZoetho2 @NunoMGA @hahussain @Copernicus2013 @CliffordDMay Say it again.

@h17253 @KlaartjeZoetho2 @NunoMGA @hahussain @Copernicus2013 @CliffordDMay You think I'm looking for "traction"? Just because you have certain motivations don't assume other people share them, that's exactly your mistake with Greenland. You think it just needs a better offer because you refuse to consider the idea that no offer is good enough

@tre_zen @KlaartjeZoetho2 @NunoMGA @hahussain @Copernicus2013 @CliffordDMay Say it again. Maybe you'll get more traction.