Stochastic Statistician

@djahanskov It's the way the the leadership of both major branches of Zionism - labor and revisionism - viewed the conflict. Calling it Arab propaganda is just dumb.

@StochasticStat1 That may have been what some Arabs percieved helped by propaganda but it is not even close to the whole truth which is way more nuanced. Israel is a small area of the Palestine region that was under the British mandate. The war was caused by Arabs who believed it was an easy win.

Let’s talk reality. A Jewish baby born today in a West Bank community will have full rights in Israel, a vote in national elections, and access to civilian courts; a Palestinian baby born in that same community will have no democratic rights, tight restrictions on their movement, frequent harassment from settlers, and no access to justice beyond what Israel’s unaccountable military courts mete out. That’s apartheid.

@djahanskov The PLO agrees to renounce armed resistance, officially recognizes Israel and works closely with Israel, and all you can do is complain that not every Palestinian agrees. They've already laid down for you, but you want more. Just pure greed.

@StochasticStat1 Fatah stopped using the PLO name because the various groups didn't agree on much and even less after Fatah accepted Israel's right to exist. That does not change the fact that various PLO groups like the PFLP, DFLP and AAMB are terrorists and don't recognise Israel.

@djahanskov They built 80 bunkers and tunnels to connect them. Any urban guerrilla group will do this if they're smart. I don't get why Israelis think this is a good talking point.

@StochasticStat1 The Warzaw ghetto used existing locations that they connected. The Viet Cong had plenty of wood at their disposal. None of them created 100s of km of concrete enforced tunnels at a size that would accomodate vehicles. holocaustremembrance.com/news/warsaw-gh… 1943.pl/en/artykul/she…

@djahanskov The greenhouses were repaired by the Palestinians, but later failed economically due to erratic border crossings controlled by Israel. It turns out that you can't build an economy under siege.

@StochasticStat1 Even Al-Jazeera disagrees with you aljazeera.com/news/2006/2/13…

@djahanskov The Zionists violently drove out 80% of the Arab population from the areas they conquered. A policy of ethnic cleansing is obviously racist.

@StochasticStat1 Another strawman. An Arab being 'displaced' from his home because his Arab landlord decides to sell the land to a Jew can hardly claim to be the victim of racism? A person leaving their home because of a war can't always come back but it isn't racism.

@djahanskov Are you really this daft? I'm honestly puzzled at how you aren't able to understand that it was European Jews who founded the state, and that Arab Jewish immigration came later.

@StochasticStat1 Then we are back to the numbers game. How did these very few Jews of which most weren't even present in the area manage to chase out almost 1 mio of their large majority neighbours, suppported by 5 surrounding countries?

@djahanskov When you make literally the same racist statement as Hitler, almost down to the word, then Godwin no longer applies. You're just a Nazi at that point.

@StochasticStat1 Arafat was born in Egypt. Making him an Egyptian. He spent most of his youth and got most of his education in Egypt before relocating to Kuwait. I see mr Godwin entered the chat. nobelprize.org/prizes/peace/1…

@djahanskov Given that “having a safe state” meant conquering someone else's land and kicking them out, it very much was aggression. You're so blinded by your own ethnic nationalism you can't grasp this obvious point.

@StochasticStat1 Having a safe state in the view of repeated pogroms, the Arab co-operation with the Nazis and in accordance with the UN res 181 can hardly be called aggression. Look at who founded the other countries in the area and when. It is another attempt to absolve Arabs of responsibility.

@djahanskov The Yishuv launched a violent effort to ethnically cleanse large portions of Palestine in early 1948. You act as if it were just Arabs attacking Jews. The Yishuv prepared for this conflict long in advance - much more than the Arabs - and acted very aggressively.

@StochasticStat1 "Not all but most of these quotes came after the Arabs had launched their violent efforts to crush the Yishuv in late ’47 and then to destroy the State of Israel after its declaration of independence in May ’48"

@djahanskov Ben Gurion's statement is straightforward and obvious: we are coming to take their land, so we're the aggressors. The founder of revisionist Zionism said exactly the same thing. It was an obvious point to Zionists at the time.

@StochasticStat1 "it’s not surprising that B-G would say some hyperbolic things after the Arabs had irrevocably shown their hand by launching their attacks." progressiveisrael.org/ben-gurions-no…

@djahanskov Individual members will do what they want. The PLO as an organization renounced armed resistance in 1993, and spent the 1990s trying to crack down on armed activity. It got dragged into the 2nd Intifada, but has been cooperating closely with Israel for the last 20+ years.

@StochasticStat1 PFLP and Al-Aqsa Martyrs brigade members took part in Oct 7. Both groups have committed terror attacks in Israel although you would likely call that resistance? They are both members of the PLO.

@djahanskov Even Ben Gurion famously stated that it was the Zionists who were fundamentally the aggressors in the war in 1947-48. They were foreigners who were fighting to take control of Palestine from the native population.

@StochasticStat1 The Arabs declared war and lost. Losing wars have consequences. The fact remains that the Arabs could have had their own states after all they already got Jordan but they didn't want Israel to exist and went after Jews before Israel was founded.

@djahanskov Arafat was Palestinian. His parents were from Jerusalem, and he spent much of his youth there. His dad had a job in Egypt. That's it. “they are inherent troublemakers” - This is the exact same thing that Hitler and pretty much every antisemite has always said about the Jews.

@StochasticStat1 Meanwhile Arafat was Egyptian and the PLO was expelled from Jordan in 1971 because they are inherent troublemakers. Then they went to Lebanon and caused a civil war there. Jews were always there and yes, there were lots of immigration by both Jews, Christians and Arabs etc.

@djahanskov The Jews who lived in Palestine were actively hostile towards Zionism. There was no large migration of Arab Jews to Palestine/Israel until years after the state of Israel was founded.

@StochasticStat1 The claim that the Jews who lived in the area had nothing to do with Israel is not true. Mass immigration occured across the Ottoman empire but somehow it is only a problem when Jews move? Opportunity is a big driver.

@djahanskov Hardly present at all in the Middle East. The movement was founded in Europe and appealed almost exclusively to European Jews. Even there, most Jews rejected Zionism until WWII.

@StochasticStat1 But it was present in most ME countries in some form. You seem to think that the Zionist movement was one streamlined organisation. Yes, European Jews was a driving force. Mainly because they had the means and the freedom to do so. Recurring pogroms was a motivation everywhere.

@NogahSenecky @granny196380033 @AmiDar 1. Because of the war you started. 2. You have air defenses.

@granny196380033 @AmiDar You do realize Israel is under ballistic missile attacks on a daily basis, right?

Many of us loathe our respective governments. And yet we would not want a foreign power to bomb our country. This should not be hard to understand.

@djahanskov The Palestinians have “self rule” in the same way that Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto had “self rule.” It's an obvious farce.

@StochasticStat1 It is not much of a point though. The Palestinians had elections, they chose to abolish them. They have self rule, they choose not to use it constructively and blame Israel for everything like beating their wives, marrying kids, censoring media, torturing and killing Palestinians

@djahanskov That's a frankly racist POV. You think it's okay to drive out an entire ethnic group because “their own kind” can take them in elsewhere.

@StochasticStat1 Basically those Jews did exactly what you believe the Palestinians are entitled to do now. With the big exception that Jews in large paid their way in and Arabs/muslims have plenty of other places to settle amongst their 'brothers and sisters'.

@djahanskov The Arab Jews only emigrated to Palestine after the foundation of Israel. The foundation of the state of Israel and the expulsion of the Palestinians created a huge amount of antisemitism throughout the region.

@StochasticStat1 Your claim that they were mostly European is simply not true. Their Arab/muslim neighbours chased them out of pretty much every country in the region. Where should they have gone?

@djahanskov Not really difficult at all. Tons of resistance groups have built extensive tunnel networks, including the Jewish fighters in the Warsaw Ghetto and the Viet Cong. The greenhouse story is another dumb talking point. They failed because of Israeli border restrictions.

@StochasticStat1 Building a tunnel network of the estimated size and with the facilities present IS difficult. Particularly if you are under siege and have no access to the outside world. Gaza took over the green houses the Israelis left and decided to smash them and steal what they could use.