AM Apologies. I have one more page around this time - a response from Nick McMillan, so sorry to hear etc. So there was a response from HR LY Nick and I go back a long way. He rang me although I couldn't answer. I saw that email. AM Do you know why he rang you

LY Assume Jane contacted him, and they and James Binks were involved when call made. AM Sarah will speak for herself but my understanding is that Sarah was unaware of these events. She continued, interviewed Barry, Sharmila, Demi. [to doc, interview with Demi]

AM Clear here that Demi aware of GG account. She says this upset Michelle and Barry who have more awareness of subject matter than I do. Members of EDI aware that GG account was yours and subject of some discussion. LY I read these statement quite recently. Struck me as painful

that day after my suicide attempt people were interviewed and saying things about me in the way that they were while I was so very seriously ill. Lack of compassion. How quickly within a matter of days they were having these conversations AM But not necessarily knowledge

of your suicide attempt LY But HR were supporting these people at this time. A number of people who would have known and should have considered whether this was the right time to have these conversations. AM [to OH report March 2023] Reason for referral - for OH advice

AM LY subject to ix had marked attrition to resilience. Ref to your overdose. I have serious concerns re LY health, v unwell, struggling to make decisions of consequence. Not in position to engage with process. AM You were not able at the time to engage with process.

LY Not the process, yes, but also what I was being accused of. AM [reads c LY still absent because of mental health decline] Dr says LY should be able to engage and make informed decision in c 4 weeks. Ix needed to be concluded in order for you to return to work?

LY Yes, that was the position. AM OH report on 27 April. Dr says unlikely to return soon. Difficult to predict timeframe for recovery and rtw. AM To meeting 17 May, attendance review meeting. Sharmila, Emma, you and TU rep. Also Carl and you had a support worker with you. LY Y

AM That meeting is included in your complaints. LY Y AM Will get transcript of meeting - page 1504. I'm going to play the bit I think is most relevant, from 1505, where Sharmila says, yes I think the report is helpful.

J Play 30 seconds before to check volume. [AM plays recording to the room. This is difficult to tweet as the sound is not great, and there is no indication of who is speaking out of the group in the meeting. The courtroom can follow the transcript]

What can we do? OH report has talked about the ix but also we need to think how we can get past that and minimise the impact it's having on you. Don't know how to answer that. I just want to go. Retire and go. Can we just park the retirement question because I'll

need to refer to my colleague on that. Need to support you to outcome that helps and not hinders. Outstanding ix - OH report says you can't participate directly but could indirectly. Need to get to next steps, what happens next. Send you set of questions you can consider?

LY responds. [AM stops the recording] I don't want to distress the claimant further. J I'm happy to listen to it in private later. AM I started it at c -18, I'd say just listen to a bit more. It's all about tone, C gets distressed, and how they respond to that.

AM [to LY] Throughout meeting Sharmila and Ella tone was supportive. That's correct? LY In terms of how they were conveying. But context - this was firsts conversation with work after my s attempt. Took a great deal to get myself into state where could attend meeting. V unwell

LY I though meeting would be compassionate, we're here for you. No idea it would be further ix. Not nasty tone, but it was still said to me and pressure built and built in that meeting. Clear from recording how much I broke down. Someone made a care referral for me

as a result. AM Shortly after recording you asked for time out of meeting. [to doc ] You say, I can't talk about it, Carl (=TU rep) I just can't. Carl explains it's because your ill health is relevant to the situation the meeting is about. LY Carl may have thought it

appropriate. I didn't. Timing was all wrong, so soon after suicide attempt. Suicide ideation. So difficult just going back in that building. AM Carl c sending qs. He says not taking view on sending qs, but your health is being talked about in meeting cos it's the trigger.

AM Carl says it Catch 22 but they have to talk about it cos it's what's causing the situation. That's your TU rep's position. LY I can see the logic in what he says. But you try to resolve things when I am well enough to even contemplate conversations about it. Where was the

duty of care I was owed at that time. Their duty - what they were asking needed to come later on. I was not safe. AM Don't disagree with how meeting made you feel. But TU rep said had to deal cos ix was what was making you ill.

LY I didn't know the allegations, what was in the meeting. You can't take that risk with someone who is suicidal, you just can't. Need to make Lorna safe and feel safe. Even if it's logical, don't take risks. Any MH professional would advise that is the way to go.

AM [reads] Sharmila says there anything we can do to get you to a position where you can engage, etc. LY I couldn't think straight. I couldn't take in what she was saying. AM Discussion goes on, no need to bring you to it. MCC in difficult position cos being told open ix was

causing you injury and was trying to manage and bring injury to end. LY They didn't do it in right way. Ix was not - I was under care of hospital, transferred to crisis team. If it had been a physical injury - eg stroke - the response would have been she needs to heal

AM A physical injury wouldn't have been what was making you unwell LY Perhaps the wrong analogy. I hoped that they would recognise the situation and there would be expertise as to how to approach me and the state I was in. To be told just to sort my health out first.

LY But she got very heavy. I felt v pressured and the progress I had made, I just went back and back. AM Outcome of meeting, letter from Sharmila. Says we tried to explore options to progress ongoing ix. You were not receptive to engaging via written qs. You were not receptive?

LY I found letter cold, callous, upset me a great deal. The characterisation that I wasn't receptive felt to me like a criticism. I wasn't fit to do so. I thought they would realise wrong approach, pushing too soon and soon hard. But they carried on pushing.

AM You felt it was a criticism. But you not engaging in writing was a fact, not criticism. LY Disagree. I wasn't not receptive, I was unwell. AM Not receptive also covers situation where you weren't able to be receptive cos sick.

LY ]Disagrees] AM [Letter talks c possible disciplinary hearing] This disc process going to continue. LY That was my understanding. I wasn't well enough to look at anything re ix. I told them that. I just can't. Then I got this letter saying you are going to have to look at it,

read it, whether you like it or not. Couldn't believe they were sending a suicidal person this - my MH plunged right down again. AM [to letter from ? ] Says, comment from HR person re LY having to face up to it inappropriate. LY When I was able to go to transcript it said she

said 'face it' not 'face up to it'. AM So Tina's letter inaccurate LY Only that bit. Rest is right. AM No obvious route out of Catch 22 LY No to me then, no. Council needed to give me time. I was making progress, fragile but progress, and could have continued to do so if they

have behaved differently. AM Tina doesn't say in letter you may be able to engage in ix later LY Tina is a crisis worker. Not her area to comment on the future possibilities, just be with me where I was at the time. AM There was no narrative about Lorna getting better.

No timeframe. Just ix making Lorna ill. LY MH recovery isn't linear. Dr wouldn't be in position to say what future will be. MH recover from something that severe is up and down, all over the placer. My progress - if that was indeed progress - I was coping day to day,

even just hour to hour. J Q c timing AM I can stop there is convenient. J Tomorrow back into normal 10-4.30 Possibly not go up to lunch. Likely to lead with Jo, broadly chronologically. Then Sarah. Sharmila. Angela. Ella.

J Adjustments? AM Jo may need room to move about, and breaks. [Jo - in room - says will indicate if she needs anything.] J Anything else before we break for day? AM No J We have more observers today. TT has asked for permission to live tweet and has been given this.

J No one else has asked. [J rises. Ends.]

@threadreaderapp Please unroll

@tribunaltweets @tribunaltweets Hello, please find the unroll here: threadreaderapp.com/thread/2054503… See you soon. 🤖