MrRyan26

@applepiemonsta2 @borowskisme Not fucked up, say I were to assault a woman sexually without her consent I could probably get some personal enjoyment from the short term exchange but know it's better for me to respect her right to autonomy so that other humans learn to respect my right to autonomy.

@Ryan26Mr @borowskisme buddy lions don’t have grocery stores. you’re not a lion. they do it because they need to, we do not. i don’t think animal deserve the same rights has humans i just think we should leave them alone. if you only view morality through what you stand to gain that’s fucked up lowkey

seeing vegan discourse is so funny cause people can’t argue against veganism so they just resort to whataboutism and constantly conflate veganism with “sustainability” like “well indigenous people eat meat sustainably”. which can be true, but that’s not what veganism is about!

@applepiemonsta2 @borowskisme Lions eat zebras without a worry for their level of suffering, i'm pretty sure some eat the zebra alive from the bottom up without even suffocating them first and they then die from blood loss.

@applepiemonsta2 @borowskisme But you would never think it wrong for a lion being selfish and eating a zebra because you're aware they have no obligation to respect the other animals rights, therefore I don't think it should be an obligation to care for an animal or protect it's rights the same I would human

@Ryan26Mr @borowskisme that’s what selfless means my man. i don’t care if they can’t thank me, it’s wrong to kill others for my own pleasure or for anyone else’s

@borowskisme @applepiemonsta2 No problem good chat though thank you.

@Ryan26Mr @applepiemonsta2 we have different epistemologies and there's no way to argue about which one of us is right because morality is objectively subjective

@applepiemonsta2 @borowskisme That's fine and if you enjoy the world more by seeing them live freely I fully respect that, but I don't think they will ever appreciate or reward you with the same kindness because they are just not capable of ever doing that, not good or bad, just the way it is.

@Ryan26Mr @borowskisme it’s a selfless choice. i can never speak to animals nor see the consequences of me choosing not to eat them, but i know by not eating them i am not engaging with the system that perpetuates their suffering, even tho sometimes its annoying or inconvenient to me. its being kind.

@borowskisme @applepiemonsta2 I think the social contract between humans is what determines morality and right and wrong because it is how we enjoy a society with lots of people getting along with my own personal happiness being the ultimate goal, that I know I need other humans to help me achieve.

@Ryan26Mr @applepiemonsta2 because the basis of morality is not the social contract. the social contract is a tool and it's no more of a tool than laws and courts, and i think even you'd agree that laws and courts aren't and shouldn't be the arbiters of morality morality is larger and more ephemeral

@borowskisme @applepiemonsta2 I agree we breed them for a certain purpose but I don't agree we have ANY obligation to take care of them because I imagine thousands of cats and dogs don't have an owner and we don't forced households to take any unwanted animals from a shelter.

@Ryan26Mr @applepiemonsta2 pets as a concept are kind of fucked up and in an ideal scenario they wouldn't exist however we live in a world where we as a species have bred certain animals to be unfit for survival outside of human society and for that reason we are morally obligated to take care of them

@borowskisme @applepiemonsta2 No it would be wrong because I want my basic human right to not be killed at any stage of life, sleeping, being an infant and being frail and old, which would only exist if I commit to an all or nothing recipricol basis of treating "the human species" with respect.

@Ryan26Mr @applepiemonsta2 attacking that old man is morally bad anyway, not because you broke a contract, but because you caused suffering

@borowskisme @applepiemonsta2 Good point we don't allow them the autonomy to roam around freely because it would reduce our level of comfort to walk around safely, isn't this violating a right if they have rights, like we don't view pets as slaves but we would never think it morally ok for a human to be that

@Ryan26Mr @applepiemonsta2 we don't allow coyotes to just roam the streets because that would be dangerous, and the reason that would be dangerous is because coyotes do not have a concept of right and wrong however, if you go out and kill coyotes for fun, you are also dangerous and should be kept away

@borowskisme @applepiemonsta2 sorry killing and eating non humans does not involve moral consideration because non humans have no wish to form a social contract with me and defend my rights.

@Ryan26Mr @applepiemonsta2 >so in my mind killing and eating no humans is void of an concept of right and wrong i'm not entirely sure i understand this sentence but i want to see where you're going, what did you mean to say

@borowskisme @applepiemonsta2 But where does this consideration for rights come from if not the human understanding that i'll receive the same consideration from other humans, an animal will never respect my right to life.

@Ryan26Mr @applepiemonsta2 because they are not capable of choosing and you are

@borowskisme @applepiemonsta2 Wait I agree, you're based, "a set of principles decided by creatures with multiple choices", but not all creatures have this capacity for granting rights, only humans have this ability, so in my mind killing and eating no humans is void of an concept of right and wrong.

@Ryan26Mr @applepiemonsta2 it's a moral obligation because we have the choice, morality implies choice because morality isn't a fixed law of the universe it's a set of principles decided by creatures with the ability to make multiple choices

@borowskisme @applepiemonsta2 Yes but even vegans will concede animals don't have an obligation to reduce suffering, like they wouldn't judge a lion for eating a zebra so why judge me for eating another species?

@Ryan26Mr @applepiemonsta2 you're describing deer as bio machines in a way that implies that humans are not just more complex bio machines

@borowskisme @applepiemonsta2 The difference is the deer doesn't think it's wrong for a predator to hunt them, they just have a survival instinct to stay the fuck away and if they gets me that's just the circle of life

@Ryan26Mr @applepiemonsta2 what is the difference between a deer instinctively resisting to stimuli and you doing that, you do that all the time

@borowskisme @applepiemonsta2 Sure you can assign whatever value you want to other animals if you'd like, that's why we have pets we love and go eat mcdonalds an hour late, but vegans would say it is not a choice, it is a moral obligation, which i think animals can't ever do for us.

@Ryan26Mr @applepiemonsta2 as humans, the one species with the capability of reason, and lucky enough to be omnivores, we are able to choose to do what other species can't

@JamieWoodhouse Weird to speak of ethics when treating another species that does not have this same consideration or ability for our species. Humans have the capacity to grant rights to other humans, animals can't do this so it is simply neutral to kill them or not kill them, not good or bad.

Being vegan isn’t a bias. Just like supporting human rights isn’t a bias. They’re just good ethics. What’s not to like? ❤️

@borowskisme @applepiemonsta2 When you say "care" they obviously have an instinct to resist negative stimuli like all living things (insects, birds, fish) but animals can't think it "wrong" if another unrelated animal has their rights violated. Assessing right and wrong is a human ability, for other humans

@Ryan26Mr @applepiemonsta2 animals certainly do care when you violate their autonomy

@novaramedia @AyoCaesar This is stupid because we already have laws against domestic violence, harassment and violating consent, the age minimum is telling that person at that age that when they consent to something they now have the mental awareness of what is safe and what is a red flag to avoid.

Should the age of consent be staggered? @ayocaesar argues that at 16, people are old enough to want to explore sex, but they should still be protected from coercion and manipulation by people who are much older. She argues that the dynamic between partners affects their ability to make an informed choice – and the law should reflect that.

@kemelios @MooseHamilton @DerekPederson3 Are all animals people retard? They are here to do what we want, this not good or bad, it is morally neutral.

@MooseHamilton @DerekPederson3 People are totally animals as a matter of fact.

The vegan position is enormously straw-manned. No one is positing that the animal agriculture industry is run by monsters who want to hurt animals. Their wellbeing however will not be protected by an industry in which they are property.

@TMGFlorida @The_Vegan_Daily "Just as valuable" so I would go to jail for the same amount of time for slitting a chicken's throat as opposed to a human, lol not even vegans believe this.

@The_Vegan_Daily A chicken is not capable of conceptualizing that, therefore you are yet again openly lying.

A chicken's life is just as valuable to them as yours is to you.