SteeD

It's upon us. After my first video, I realized that I needed to replay the games and do thorough research before venturing into theory-crafting that is worthy of people's time. So this has been in the works since August. I hope you enjoy it! youtu.be/9eqpzUydSVI

@QueenLolipopo Totally, I mentioned earlier that I wasn't even around during the rebirth marketing cycle. And tbf up until a year ago I was vaguely aware of the shopping discourse, and never imagined it to be as big as it really is.

@ffSteeD27 So imo you come from a place of first timer and you dont see why this would be so bad to allow rroom for others, alas when the entire VII content space has been eaten by people making every scene (specially Tifa's scenes) about Aerith and Sephiroth, it leaves scars

Lmao what did I miss 😭😭😭 (QRT for clarity i'm getting too many notifications)

@QueenLolipopo That's why I said earlier that it's probably because of the initial wave of "let's bring aerith to replace Tifa in the LSS". I get that but it's also light years away from what I was saying, so I feel like saying that's my intent is a bit unfair, but it's all a video game anyway

@ffSteeD27 I think the issue here is you don't know the depths of the resentment about the Tifa erasure lol, that's why people are pretty touchy with this eagerness people have in erasing Tifa of her scenes, cause for years most content was all about making her a sub characters

@QueenLolipopo But she did acknowledge that he came for her in the mountain, so I doubt the revelation will go further than that about that sequence? Definitely it doesn't affect the outcome, where we disagree is that I think nothing can affect the outcome if it's properly executed..

@ffSteeD27 I see but even in this fragment at she has to know why he was there, something she doesn't yet given it's the crux of it all (thats kinda my vision with the remake, it can expand or add things, as long as those dont affect the outcome (in a believable way) it's faithful

I've also been meaning to say this: The LSS is about Cloud's identity. It means that it's not about Zack or Aerith but also NOT about Tifa either. It's about HIM. If writers decide that in Remake Cloud needs to learn all the truths he repressed to heal, it'd be consistent.

@Braedberi__07 Right so that's really the essence of what I'm saying. I feel like me saying Zack/Aerith/Tifa are all a level below (not necessarily at the same level) is just what it is no?

@ffSteeD27 i feel like this is the bare minimum of course he's the protagonist

@theshenami Oh it definitely is, but it's also half serious, not to those who engaged in actual conversation (like you always do and did today), but those who straight jumped at the occasion to say that my agenda was always just to undermine Tifa.. Probably went too far but hey

@ffSteeD27 I'm choosing to take this as a lighthearted jab, since you and I have always been respectful when we've disagreed 😎

I can't believe you all want to erase Cloud's role in the LSS just to put Tifa at the same level as him? Anything to undermine Cloud's role in the story.

@Sesiyrus I see why you look at it that way but that's what I said yesterday. This might be the one thing I fundamentally disagree on with Clotis. For me Cloud's arc is first then there is everything else (with Tifa super high obviously).

@ffSteeD27 Hmmm genuinely couldn’t disagree more, Nibelheim, The Lifestream, and Under the Highwind are all chained together and they are both about Cloud AND TIFA, Cloud is the main character who shares his arc with this other character pivotal to it, that’s what you mean I would hope.

@Tieryn_gaming I feel that her not giving up about Cloud in general is probably the closest. So maybe when she decides to stay next to him. You can make a case for the LSS, I just think it's a much bigger climax for Cloud's arc than Tifa's, which shouldn't be controversial imo...

@ffSteeD27 1 question, if you don't mind: What do you think is the climax of Tifa's arc in OG?

@QueenLolipopo I mean I'm on board with this.

@ffSteeD27 A build up for the reveal that yeah, he was here in Nibelheim, he kept his promise, and it was always very much in character for him to care for her, even when she barely knew

@QueenLolipopo It changes the realization she comes to in one of the fragments in the LSS that's what I meant.

@ffSteeD27 Yeah but when you say that Tifa knows Cloud was there in NC and that it drastically change the LS what does it alters ? Because This is just a build up, exactly like all those moments where Tifa mentioned Cloud was looking at her in the past ;

@drowsyluma @TifaTheMonk You can certainly ignore my condescending redditspeak if you don't like it.

@ffSteeD27 @TifaTheMonk Idc man I think you should lay off this for a bit or smth instead of talking to ppl with this weird insecure condescending redditspeak

There’s literally a whole scene in OG that replays Aerith death when we return to Forgotten Capitol. And no it doesn’t undermine Cloud at all. That’s why it was in OG.

@michelangeloRit @TifaTheMonk I'm not against your logic, that's actually why I'm asking the question. If not during the LSS, then when considering we don't want to undermine the LSS.

@ffSteeD27 @TifaTheMonk Not that he would 'find out' that Aerith is dead that late at FC either. Like I said before, he could know she's dead far earlier. But the big scene all playing out in full I mean, living/reliving the whole moment, esp for the players too, not just talking about it I mean

Whatever the devs have decided to do is what will be. I don’t care about being right, I just care if the story is handled well, and my favorite scenes respected, and not watered down. That’s it.

@Danomite_Dan I think there's a difference between learning the truth and forgiving himself. I'm only talking about the former.

Cloud is not going to be magically healed after the LSS. He’s going to know the truth, but it’s going to take years before he forgives himself. Even in OG he blames himself for his persona disorder and constantly says “I” so much that the entire party reminds him “it’s we”, that they are a team, and that it isn’t all on Cloud.

@JohnFinalF But Cloud already knows she's dead by then. The weight of the moment isn't as big. If the reveal to him happens there, surely it's a big emotional moment?

@ffSteeD27 I believe in OG we saw a replay of her death when the party went back to the forgotten capital to find out she succeeded in summoning holy. There is also a line before that where Cloud post-LSS says "I remember Aerith so much" which would be an opportune time for a flashback

I want constructive conversation out of this, which is why I'd love for someone to give me a satisfactory answer to this question (I am unable to): - Where can the story fit Aerith's death at the end of the game in a way that doesn't undermine Cloud being HIM after the LSS?

@Danomite_Dan @DashingDavidYT But can they trust him if he's still in denial post-LSS? That's something that didn't happen in the OG, something has to be different.

@ffSteeD27 @DashingDavidYT Uh… I think Rebirth shows that while the party still trusts Cloud to an extent, they are very aware he is in denial. The look Barrett and Tifa give each other at the end, and Tifa not even talking to Cloud.

And about Cloud reclaiming his true self THEN learning about Zack's and Aerith's deaths. I'm genuinely curious to hear how, because wouldn't this undermine the LSS? We get Zack's death in the manor in OG, but can the party trust him if he still hasn't acknowledged Aerith's?

@Danomite_Dan That's where we disagree because I think the LSS will be used to reveal things.

@ffSteeD27 I don’t think LSS is going to be as much of a OMG plot twist moment in Revalation as much as an emotional one. I think the OMG plot twist moment has to do with the ending, and the true meaning behind the Remake trilogy.

@Danomite_Dan I'm talking about the weight of the moments. The LSS is that absolute climax of the story, so having a huge emotional moment happen later (which does have to do with Cloud's perception) would undermine the first one no?

Ummm…. Anywhere? How does her death undermine Cloud at all? Being who? Himself? Her death doesn’t undermine that. Also, her death already happened, so I feel like you are really asking at what point should Cloud remember her death, and I would argue that should be during the LSS, because that is I believe when he should also remember Zack’s death. Cloud regaining his true self means he also regains his true memories, which include those truths. It is possible that those memories come flooding back to Cloud later, and there was a segment in OG where the party remembers Aerith at Cosmo Canyon and at the Forgotten Temple.

@Braedberi__07 Let me position it better: FF7 is FIRST about Cloud, then everyone/everything else after that. I feel like we can agree on this no?

@ffSteeD27 Wait but your statement was that "FF7 is about no one and nothing else other than Cloud." brother, I think you make these bold statements sometimes that lack nuance. Most of their characters have their entire arcs in FF7 as a matter of fact ⬇

"The Forgotten Capital is about Cloud witnessing a death his denial and grieving. It means that it's not about the rest of the cast either but also NOT about Aerith either. It's about HIM."

@theshenami I can understand it from this angle. That's why it's a conundrum to me, I still didn't find a formula that doesn't undermine the LSS. The only one that comes close is plugging realization on both deaths right at the NC then proper grief once we come back, less issues but still.

@ffSteeD27 I'd argue the opposite, that both segments need their own dedicated story sections to spotlight each arc. Also, the LSS serves a very specific narrative purpose, and mourning is not a part of that.

@AnUnabashedNerd Surely that's not real.

@ffSteeD27 Lol I remember when someone seriously tried to argue that Cloud doesn’t need to be present during the LSS, that Tifa could go alone and then just report to Cloud what she learned later