Austin Uphoff

@thescriptures1 @DannySlavich from a restful, trusting, obedience to Christ.

@AustinUphoff @DannySlavich That’s a good thing to do it’s just not what Paul is talking about in 2 Cor 10:5. Piper states as much. So using the verse prescriptively in the context of ocd is a well meaning but abusive use of the text.

This article locates the theological principle for addressing OCD in the wrong place. Those with OCD symptoms need less to ask God for forgiveness for their thoughts. Instead, they need to trust his providential presence when they strike.

@thescriptures1 @DannySlavich I quoted the article you sent. The two things that Piper suggests are applications of the text. "This means two things that any Christian should do...submit all thoughts to scrutiny and ask the Spirit to work." This can certainly be applied to OCD, esp thoughts that lead away +

@MBurtwrites @sevier_nick @StatlerMatthew that love, but me spending time in a bar and among friends who love to drink actually works against that process.) I'm also not saying that every pop-up needs to be repented of, but rather it can be traced back to the source of a sin-affected heart, rather than externally.

@AustinUphoff @sevier_nick @StatlerMatthew Perhaps a piece of the breakdown here is the persistent eva (mis)belief that sin is primarily & only personal wrongdoing in some way A more expansive view of sin as a Power that has fractured the way things are supposed to be (kind of like we might perceive disease) might help

This is an excellent article from @StatlerMatthew on OCD. Those attacking it borrow from unsettled science that assumes a materialistic view of man and does not prove biological causation; it merely observes correlations. However, the biblical worldview adequately accounts for such correlations: shared heart-level patterns produce habituated behavior, which reshapes neurology. Romans 6–7 already tells us sin dwells in and operates through the mortal body. Therefore, we should expect entrenched spiritual patterns — disordered fear, compulsive self-protection, refusal to trust God's sovereignty — to produce convergent physiology across individuals who share them. Once again, the sufficient Word of God does not need corroboration from a discipline that presupposes there is no soul.

@MBurtwrites @sevier_nick @StatlerMatthew Recognizing those thoughts as proceeding from a sinful heart leads me to the only one who can change my heart (values, fears, loves). I cannot change my heart, but I am at least partially responsible for what influences my heart. (I might love alcohol and ask God to be changing +

@MBurtwrites @sevier_nick @StatlerMatthew Pharisees often did things that were seen as being for the good of others, but Jesus revealed the sinful motivations underneath (Mt 6). Admitting that sinful thoughts arise from a sinfully affected heart doesn't have to proceed to scrupulosity. +

@thescriptures1 @DannySlavich "Destroy in my mind any false or proud thoughts that I have about God.” This really means two things, I think, that Sarah and I — and anybody else, any Christian — should do... Submit all thoughts to scrutiny, Ask the Holy Spirit to work." Does this only apply to wanted thoughts?

@AustinUphoff @DannySlavich Have to read it in context desiringgod.org/interviews/how…

@thescriptures1 @DannySlavich Could you explain how 2 Cor 10:5 doesn't apply to those pop up thoughts? How is it limited to only desirable thoughts?

@DannySlavich Exactly. “Where is God in ocd?” Is a good question to ask but their conclusion is completely wrong. The answer is he’s refining, sustaining, and sanctifying. 2 Cor 10:5 also isn’t referring to every random thought that pops in our mind, that’s a misinterpretation.

@MBurtwrites @sevier_nick @StatlerMatthew I'd really like to see those two engage you on this. Personally, I would say that it depends on motivation. If the motive is to cleanse themselves, then yes, those thoughts and motivations could be sinful. It makes those into a self cleansing work instead of a God given grace.

@sevier_nick @StatlerMatthew Religious OCD often manifests as obsession about religious practices, eg saying prayers just right, reading the Bible scrupulously, extreme acts of devotion, lengthy fasts, etc. Would you identify these thoughts/compulsions as “sins”?

@mrtylershores For example, can my heart desire something that I don't think is an actual desire of mine? Of course it can (Jer 17:9). Even as a believer, we can have sinful thoughts originating from a corrupted heart.

@AustinUphoff Just a bit of push back or at least something to add to the definition: an intrusive thought is generally agreed to be characterized by the fact that the thought is inconsistent with any of your actual desires. The thoughts talked about in Romans 7 are consistent diff.

This article fundamentally misunderstands intrusive thoughts because the author aligns them with internal temptations (Romans 7) and not external temptations.

@mrtylershores Yeah I'm still mulling that one over. Could those thoughts be consistent with the old dead man (Rom 7) even for a believer who is far along in their sanctification? I think so but I'm open to considering otherwise.

@mrtylershores (3) our theory of causation leads us to assume that we need to deal with what's causing the thoughts externally. Or we look to meds to help us more easily cast off those thoughts and ignore introspection.

@AustinUphoff Rather, it is an extended attempt to gain certainty about whether the intrusive thought could mean something true about you or your environment, even though the feared conclusion is not actually true. (2)

@mrtylershores The goal then for the BC is to help the struggler replace those many implications from introspection with biblical truth about who they are in Christ. Our goal is not to reduce the intrusions or control their context. If it's a thought originating from outside of me then...

@mrtylershores I think you made a shift in your thinking here. I see this introspection as a totally different thought process than intrusive thoughts. It moves beyond the intrusive thoughts into implications that could be made about me. Something that is common with OCD for sure. (1)

@mrtylershores Just taking a quick stab: 1) sudden unwanted thoughts, ideas, and images. 2) No. Intrusive thoughts originate from within the heart, possibly prompted by an observation (or not), and then sinfully ruminated on instead of taken captive (2 Cor 10:5).

@AustinUphoff What the conversation ultimately boils down to is: 1) How do we define “intrusive thoughts”? 2) Are intrusive thoughts conceptually the same thing as a desire based temptation?

@mrtylershores (2) I believe the heart's condition (values, loves, fears) is what takes a noticing thought past the point of simple observation into sinful rumination. This perspective frees the OCD struggler from the guilt of the observation, but holds them accountable to what they dwell on.

@AustinUphoff If I say I own a blue colored banana with a yellow ribbon your mind’s eye immediately envisions the object described. This is the kind of thing I’m talking about when I refer to thoughts as originating from outside of us rather than desire.

@mrtylershores Right, but that's not what's being described with OCD. Just because I notice a knife, doesn't mean that I will necessarily have intrusive thoughts about the damage I could do with that knife. I understand you to mean that what's outside of us can influence our thoughts. (1)

@mrtylershores (2) thoughts can originate from outside of us, is to say that whatever is happening circumstantially can determine our thoughts. This functionality removes agency and undermines commands related to our thinking (I can't help thinking about this).

@AustinUphoff I think every thought should be evaluated with suspicion. But thoughts can originate from within you because of your desires or outside of you because of something in your field of awareness. Not all thoughts are indicative of your particular desires.

@mrtylershores (1) I would say that what's happening outside of you can certainly influence your thoughts or provide the context of those thoughts, but I would agree with the article in that the heart fuels the entertainment of those thoughts, sometimes more than is beneficial. But to say that

@mrtylershores But in your analogy, we can still ask the question, where are those pop ups coming from? Or in more plain language, where do thoughts originate from, regardless of if they're wanted or desired. Would the Y chart be inaccurate to teach that thoughts proceed from the heart?

@AustinUphoff (2) I do think that random thoughts can be indicative of the lusts of the heart. But, this is not what is happening within the narrow experience of intrusive thoughts within OCD. Think of them like a pop-up window on your pc.