GhostofEk

186 posts

GhostofEk

GhostofEk

@GhostofEk

Katılım Aralık 2016
14 Takip Edilen1 Takipçiler
GhostofEk
GhostofEk@GhostofEk·
What’s your point? Do you know how to engage with the relevant parts of the hypothetical? You don’t know what the cause of death is in the other one either. Maybe it’s by tearing your limbs off. Are you trying to say what button you would press depends on HOW you would die? That’s an interesting take that literally no one is asking because it’s not important to the thought experiment. I said, pretend that rabies is as painful or not as whatever the other one is. You’re trying to be smart here but completely missing the point.
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Student Driver
Student Driver@StudentDriver6·
@GhostofEk @Ludlowfnl What I'm saying is that if you do that, it's just the same situation and largely nullifies the persuasive effect. There's another structural issue here though: rabies deaths are horrific. Frankly, maybe as bad as they get. In the other problem, no CoD is specified.
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mediocre comedic phenom
mediocre comedic phenom@Ludlowfnl·
You are a bad person if you press red. There are no ifs, ands, or buts about it. If you press red, you are condemning infants, toddlers, children/disabled people/ elderly people/etc. who didn’t read or comprehend it, to death. You think you’ve “aha’d” all the blue pressers, but ultimately you are selfish, just like your choice of the red button
MrBeast@MrBeast

Everyone on earth takes a private vote by pressing a red or blue button. If more than 50% of people press the blue button, everyone survives. If less than 50% of people press the blue button, only people who pressed the red button survive. Which button would you press? BE HONEST.

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GhostofEk
GhostofEk@GhostofEk·
You’re wondering about irrelevant details. Picture the same room as the buttons. One is “skip rabies” one is “get rabies”. Assume getting rabies is completely painless, it’s simultaneous, etc. make it as close or exact to the game as you’d like. None of that matters for the point of the experiment.
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Student Driver
Student Driver@StudentDriver6·
@GhostofEk @Ludlowfnl The structural difference matters a lot. If it's not at the same time, and the decision isn't forced, i.e. the call to action at the end, then you risk delay, etc. from other people. Pain and cost may prevent certain individuals from participating.
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GhostofEk
GhostofEk@GhostofEk·
@EUhobgoblin @jakeolenick Dude, you ALREADY tried and failed twice to engage with my hypothetical, lost, and now are saying it’s just irrelevant.
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John Adams
John Adams@EUhobgoblin·
@GhostofEk @jakeolenick Believe it or not, "how would you feel if you didnt have breakfast this morning" Does not give an answer to "do you feel hungry right now" Just like "is there a first blue voter when it's sequential" does not give an answer to "is there a first blue voter when it's not".
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Jacob Olenick
Jacob Olenick@jakeolenick·
I think it is genuinely strange how desperately people are trying to find ways to get red to win. It's not complicated! Blue is a proxy for altruism (modulated by expected risk of death). Red is selfishness, low-trust. Society evolves to be more altruistic, so blue tends to win.
Rob Miles@robertskmiles

Everyone is presented with two buttons, and must choose one: If you press Red, nothing happens. If you press Blue, you die, unless more than half of people also pressed Blue, in which case nothing happens. What do you choose?

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John Adams
John Adams@EUhobgoblin·
@GhostofEk @jakeolenick Your argument hinges on the first blue presser. There is no first blue presser. So no, it does not apply.
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GhostofEk
GhostofEk@GhostofEk·
@EUhobgoblin @jakeolenick It does, it’s the same principle. I thought you were close for a second there but you are far away again. Have a good one
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John Adams
John Adams@EUhobgoblin·
@GhostofEk @jakeolenick Your life isnt the only one being risked and you should not consider it as the only thing of value. Anyways. Who gives a fuck about sequential? None of the arguments you've made apply to the original.
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GhostofEk
GhostofEk@GhostofEk·
@EUhobgoblin @jakeolenick Yes but the blue line is risky and depends on the people behind you if you live or die. The red line doesn’t have that problem. This is easy shit my man.
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John Adams
John Adams@EUhobgoblin·
@GhostofEk @jakeolenick In a sequential game with rational players, 100% red is possible. But of course, if the first person plays blue, rational players can continue and 100% blue is perfectly achievable as well.
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John Adams
John Adams@EUhobgoblin·
@GhostofEk @jakeolenick Is not sequential. As far as any individual is concerned, they might as well be the last person to go because it's blind. There are some nonzero number of blues in the pool. If i press the button, am i first? No. Are any of them first? No.
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GhostofEk
GhostofEk@GhostofEk·
So you agree, in a sequential game the only danger happens when the first person presses blue, and not the other way around. And that you are just predicting other people behind you may accidentally put themselves in danger where there currently isn’t any. I’m glad you actually agree with my original point 🙌
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John Adams
John Adams@EUhobgoblin·
@GhostofEk @jakeolenick Assuming that there were no blues before me? That depends on what i expect people behind me to do. If there are kids or something, who might elect to be the first blue, then i might be willing to go blue. Otherwise not. But that's why it matters that the original game...
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GhostofEk
GhostofEk@GhostofEk·
No it doesn’t. And sorry, you already tried to make the other point, that the “first blues” would have been just as safe in my original framing- which was purely wrong. Sorry you can’t back out of it now. But curious, would you say Im actually right if the game was run sequentially? And that nobody is at risk until the first blue was pressed? Or are you just using “timing” as a way to not look as dumb in hindsight. In other words- if game is sequential, is my original point correct or not? If not, why did you start fighting about timing?
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John Adams
John Adams@EUhobgoblin·
@GhostofEk @jakeolenick An argument based on first blue is fundamentally based on a faulty premise. It dumbs it down into something different.
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GhostofEk
GhostofEk@GhostofEk·
It’s to DUMB IT DOWN for people like you. Red picks introduce no risk. Blue is what introduced the risk. Breaking it down sequentially is how it’s obvious to see it. That’s why you didn’t respond “oh shit you’re right” and instead deflected to timing, when I pointed out how your comment is exactly wrong. Why did you originally say “you could say the same about blue”, if your actual point was just gonna say “timing” later? Because you thought you had me there.
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John Adams
John Adams@EUhobgoblin·
@GhostofEk @jakeolenick This isn't a sequential game. Everyone is picking simultaneously. There is no "first blue" or "first red".
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martin
martin@MamanakisMarty·
@GhostofEk @Id10tzQuery Absolutely noone, not a single life is in danger. If 40 people vote red before anyone votes blue. Thats 0 life's lost. The moment someone votes blue. Thats a life at risk.
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GhostofEk
GhostofEk@GhostofEk·
@EUhobgoblin @jakeolenick Everyone who picked blue is at risk. Because a string of red voters could come along behind them. Whereas that CANT happen if they all picked red originally. Not complicated. Nice try.
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GhostofEk
GhostofEk@GhostofEk·
@ReaperII7 @Id10tzQuery Agreed. Here is the actual strong version of their dilemma. Yet nobody has sent a screenshot yet.
GhostofEk tweet media
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Reaper117
Reaper117@ReaperII7·
@Id10tzQuery @GhostofEk Blue button group could donate a kidney while alive that might save a life. How many will take this challenge and prove they're being honest.
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𝕮𝖆𝖑𝖊𝖇 𝕯𝖎𝖝𝖔𝖓 𝕾𝖒𝖎𝖙𝖍
𝕮𝖆𝖑𝖊𝖇 𝕯𝖎𝖝𝖔𝖓 𝕾𝖒𝖎𝖙𝖍@CalebDixonSmith·
I don't even think the first point is true. Picking red is not in any sense the rational decision, just the one that guarantees survival, which is something completely different and only tangentially related.
John Palmer@johnpalmer

- If all humans are rational, everyone picks red. - But we know many humans are not rational - Therefore, red means 100% survival, but greater chance non-rational humans die - Blue increases chance all humans live, including non-rational ones So it just comes down to if you think it’s good for non-rational humans to exist.

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GhostofEk
GhostofEk@GhostofEk·
No, “would you save half the babies who would press blue” is so obvious it’s clearly NOT the trick. But, if you are so smart… Assume only grown, competent, well informed, non color blind adults. Would you then pick red? Or are you just using an edge case to justify your stupidity?
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LionRiver
LionRiver@LionRiver3·
@GhostofEk @VitoComedy That IS the trick. So you’re saying if you actually learned to read the prompt, then you’d switch to 🔵?
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MAX MEMES
MAX MEMES@VitoComedy·
Adding babies to it is moronic because then the question is just would you risk your life to save half the world's babies Which is just not that interesting to debate
Russell@theramblingfool

Every Pro-red argument: (1) Cynicism: "It's impossible for blue to win. Don't be suicidal." (2) Narcissism: "There is no downside to pressing red." (3) Changing the hypo: "Babies don't count. That'd be stupid! So there's a blender..." (4) Psychopathy: "Blue pressers deserve to die." (5) General poor analytic reasoning: "If everyone just pressed red!"

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martin
martin@MamanakisMarty·
@Id10tzQuery @GhostofEk Isnt... isnt that EXACTLY what you are doing with blue? By picking blue in the first place you are the only reason you have a chance of dying at all. Your choices do not have to be fixed by other people.
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GhostofEk
GhostofEk@GhostofEk·
@theramblingfool An internet poll that lets people pretend to themselves they are a hero while putting 0 on the line… this is your example? Are you really a lawyer? You won’t answer this one anyways. You just claim “I refuse all other hypotheticals” because they would show how you’re wrong.
GhostofEk tweet media
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Russell
Russell@theramblingfool·
*Every anonymous poll shows blue winning* "Those anonymous respondents are virtue signaling."
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Cpt. Cheez
Cpt. Cheez@Captain_Cheez·
@Vn_nyy Blue pressers have this belief that red pressers are inflicting the killing onto them, for some reason. They pretend nobody else was given the red button option. That’s why the joker analogy doesn’t work. Joker didn’t offer them the choice of leaving the boat.
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Vinny
Vinny@Vn_nyy·
This argument is so stupid and I shouldn’t be giving any energy to it but my issue is that while I understand what the hypothetical is trying to say, it just does not resonate with me because it’s so poorly constructed. Everyone should pick the button with no risk
Terminally Online Leftist 🥂@terminallyOL

give it up already

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GhostofEk
GhostofEk@GhostofEk·
The intention was clearly the game theory one. “Should we all come together to save half the worlds toddlers and handicappped” is not even an interesting discussion. However, just clarify with someone that everyone is of competent, voting age, not color blind and not confused, and see if they still pick blue- or if they are using the obvious edge case to justify their poor thinking.
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Emma Hilton
Emma Hilton@FondOfBeetles·
You read it as a classical game theory puzzle and retrofitted an idealised population around that (rational, informed etc). This is why many reds think blues are dumb and deserve to die. Some of us started with “everyone” and treated it as evolutionary game theory interrogating co-operation as a survival strategy. This is why many blues think reds are horrors of nature. How I choose to play in a roomful of adults who know or intuit classical game theory would likely be very different to how I chose to play in the co-operation (with risk) evolutionary scenario.
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Keşfet

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