Ira Kleiman

@tuftythecat Grok is likely referring to the many emails between Craig and myself, but there wasn’t a single email exchange between Dave and myself that was ever disclosed at trial. Check the docket if you don’t believe me.

@Kleiman1933 Is Grok correct here? Seems like you are either holding something back that would be completely game-changing, or you’re just lying. x.com/i/grok/share/2…

In 2007, Dave sends me a link to this Youtube video. youtube.com/watch?v=I6IQ_F… The opening frame is timestamped October 31, 2007 exactly one year before Satoshi released the Bitcoin white paper on October 31, 2008. pic.twitter.com/VkfwAxtuYq

@steverabinow @tuftythecat I wasn’t fooled. Aside from the timestamped evidence, I also had direct knowledge from my brother.

@Kleiman1933 @tuftythecat > Your theory requires Grigg, one of the earliest and most knowledgeable guys in this space Nonsense. And why wouldn’t he have been fooled by altered docs? You were. Your theory requires him to be lying about his knowledge and secretly involved. It’s just pure hopium.

Just finished Faketoshi Volume II (the Kleiman years, largely). A good read, and better than Vol I, I think. I’m expecting Vol III to be even better.

@steverabinow @tuftythecat Your theory requires Grigg, one of the earliest and most knowledgeable guys in this space to have been completely fooled by altered documents. Mine just requires him to have known what he was talking about.

@Kleiman1933 @tuftythecat You've jettisoned the concept of evidence entirely now and are clinging to confirmation bias. Grigg only "confirmed" it due to the mountain of forged documents he saw. You know this deep down, but need to tweak the facts to fit your story, since you so badly want it to be true.

@steverabinow @tuftythecat Everyone truly “involved” in Bitcoin’s creation knows how to ensure plausible deniability in everything they say and do. Grigg confirming Dave’s involvement while carefully framing the timing of his knowledge is exactly what you’d expect from someone who understood the stakes.

@Kleiman1933 @tuftythecat What's your theory, that Grigg was just lying when he said his "knowledge" of Satoshi was only 2015 or later?

@steverabinow @tuftythecat There’s a big difference between interest and involvement. I remember reading about CyberCash in the 90’s and being passively “interested” in it, but I didn’t have a clue how to be involved in that space. I was busy with other things like developing England.com

@Kleiman1933 @tuftythecat Lots of people were interested in digital money. That doesn't imply they had something to do with Bitcoin's creation. You're free to make up things that Grigg never even suggested let alone stated. But that doesn't make them true.

@steverabinow @tuftythecat Grigg’s triple entry paper was 2005. His presence at Cryptography conferences dates to 1997. His e-gold involvement predates Bitcoin. These aren’t the credentials of someone who needed to be briefed in 2015, these are the credentials of someone who was already in the room.

@Kleiman1933 @tuftythecat I just linked his own description of his "knowledge". None of it was contemporaneous! It was all in 2015 or later. How can you not see that?

@steverabinow @tuftythecat Grigg wasn’t taking credit, he was confirming what he knew firsthand. And on his own Cryptography blog he wrote: ‘I confirm Kleiman was a member of the team. The death of Kleiman left the team somewhat unbalanced.’ That’s not someone taking credit. That’s a witness.

@Kleiman1933 @tuftythecat So? Grigg tried to take credit for Bitcoin's invention. Not surprising.

@steverabinow @tuftythecat Grigg himself wrote in 2011 that Bitcoin is the first successful wide-scale implementation of triple entry accounting. financialcryptography.com/mt/archives/00… “It is in this that BitCoin may have its greatest impact -- it may have shown the first successful widescale test of triple entry.”

@Kleiman1933 @tuftythecat There’s zero evidence of “triple entry accounting” having any influence on Bitcoin. Satoshi was generous with credit and influence, and Grigg is unmentioned. Again, beside the point. Grigg is simply not a sophisticated cryptographer.

@tuftythecat @Twentynothing00 I’m not sure what you’re talking about at this point. Are you saying that you are still not able to see my posts about the 2007 email exchange?

@Kleiman1933 @Twentynothing00 It looks like you have taken a leaf out of Craig's book, promising and never delivering. It's all a bit tiresome now.

@steverabinow @tuftythecat Fully credulous? Ian Grigg was present at the first Financial Cryptography conference in Anguilla in 1997, involved in e-gold, and invented triple entry accounting, a concept embedded in Bitcoin’s architecture. You don’t fool someone who helped build the foundation.

@Kleiman1933 @tuftythecat No evidence he was “there from the beginning” and your apparent point was that Craig managed to fool people who would demand extreme levels of verification. Again, zero evidence Grigg was anything but fully credulous the entire time.

@tuftythecat @Twentynothing00 Not untrue, simply untold.

@Kleiman1933 @Twentynothing00 You had your chance in court to prove that your late brother had something to do with Bitcoin. You didn't provide the evidence then, and the jury didn't believe you. The only reasonable conclusion to draw at this point is that your claim is simply untrue.

@steverabinow @tuftythecat I think it’s safe to say that financial cryptography was a necessary component for developing Bitcoin. Grigg was there from the beginning.

@Kleiman1933 @tuftythecat Nope. Calling oneself a “financial cryptographer” does not mean you’re an expert or sophisticated in actual cryptography.

@tuftythecat @Twentynothing00 I’m just making sure all sides of the story get heard. Everyone is welcome to draw their own conclusions.

@Kleiman1933 @Twentynothing00 You can tweet as much as you like about it, but without making the evidence itself available you are just telling a very unconvincing story.

@tuftythecat @steverabinow If he held any, how would it benefit anyone by disclosing it? Ian Grigg had partial involvement with e-gold where the founders faced money laundering charges. Liberty reserve founders, jailed. Bitcoin founders, no paper trail.

@Kleiman1933 @steverabinow Ok, I'll give you that one. So what cryptographic evidence does he have that proves Craig is Satoshi?

@tuftythecat @Twentynothing00 I didn’t tweet the entire email chain but I referenced the key parts of it. I just want to confirm whether my posts are showing up on your end. When you visit my profile page do you see that I tweeted several times about Dave’s 2007 email?

@Kleiman1933 @Twentynothing00 I see no email, and no evidence at all of Dave being connected to Bitcoin. You're looking for patterns and connections when there is nothing there.

@steverabinow @tuftythecat Last time I checked, Ian Grigg was a sophisticated financial cryptographer.

@tuftythecat @Kleiman1933 Yeah, none are cryptographers let alone “some of the world’s most sophisticated”.

@Twentynothing00 @tuftythecat That’s how operational security works. Nothing explicit. Everything deniable in isolation. Everything connected in pattern. Dave was a forensics and cryptography expert who understood that better than most.

@Twentynothing00 @tuftythecat 2007, Dave emails me about bubble economics. His follow up email hints at creating the next big bubble. Jan 2009 Metzdowd post. Nov 2009 Dave revisits bubble conversation, says he’s creating his own money. W&K formed at Bitcoin’s $1.00 milestone. The timestamps form the pattern.

@tuftythecat @Twentynothing00 On my profile page, are you not able to see the below post where I reference an email Dave sent me in 2007? I mention the Subject of it and the YouTube page he wanted me to see. youtu.be/I6IQ_FOCE6I To be clear, the bubble graphic wasn’t part of the email.

@Kleiman1933 @Twentynothing00 I see no email. If you really did do that, why were they not used? Why not make them available for all to see?

@tuftythecat @Twentynothing00 Even the referenced email that I pointed you to, just a figment of my imagination? Are you aware that all of my email exchanges with Dave were turned over to Craig's attorneys as well as my own? Any of them could easily verify their existence with full metadata attached.

@Kleiman1933 @Twentynothing00 Yes I do.