MartinCothran

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MartinCothran

MartinCothran

@MartinCothran

Author: Traditional Logic, Classical Rhetoric. Editor: Classical Teacher magazine. Provost: Memoria College. Podcast: Classical, Et Cetera. Memoria Press

Kentucky, USA Katılım Ocak 2009
3.9K Takip Edilen3.8K Takipçiler
MartinCothran
MartinCothran@MartinCothran·
My audio reading of John Quincy Adams' Speech on Independence Day, 1837, from Finding Our Words: Words That Made America, from Mount Titano Media, along with readings of other great American speeches is now available on Audible. audible.com/pd/Finding-Our…
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Memoria College
Memoria College@MemoriaCollege·
"It is a condition of children’s education that their curiosity be engaged. That is, granting one additional premise: that the classical view of the soul is correct. But there are alternative notions of education that take a stand on different convictions about the human soul." memoriacollege.org/a-tale-of-two-…
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MartinCothran
MartinCothran@MartinCothran·
@LiveOakPirate @Le_Master So are you saying that you agree that there must or can be some divergence with the teaching of the classical era? If so, what would that look like?
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Live Oak Pirate
Live Oak Pirate@LiveOakPirate·
@Le_Master @MartinCothran Well…. That was the discussion that I was having with Martin. However, once that is laid out, the question we are addressing is: what to do now, and where must we diverge from the teaching of the classical era.
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MartinCothran
MartinCothran@MartinCothran·
All of the arts can also be considered AS sciences (particularly the quantitative ones, like geometry), but as liberal ARTS, they are considered primarily as arts. Plato notably considers geometry primarily as a science.
Jake@Le_Master

Right they are arts in respect to their role as being teachable and formative to a man. Rational disciplines is a good way to consider them. But people need to also understand the four quantitative arts are indeed sciences. Importantly so because it is through what makes them sciences that the intellect is led to higher philosophy and theology.

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MartinCothran
MartinCothran@MartinCothran·
@LiveOakPirate @Le_Master I'm not quite getting the reference, "but at least in the Quad". I don't quite understand it in this context. I was going to respond to you here, but I wanted to fully understand what you were saying.
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Live Oak Pirate
Live Oak Pirate@LiveOakPirate·
@Le_Master @MartinCothran My point was, the CCE movement is claiming to replicate education from the classical era, but at least in the Quad. it most certainly is not….but saying that it is. …few things flourish when their underlying structure is a fiction. There’s the problem.
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MartinCothran
MartinCothran@MartinCothran·
"It is not an accident that, when Plato was establishing his science of ethics and politics, he modelled it neither on the mathematical type of knowledge, nor on speculative natural philosophy, but...on medical science."—Werner Jaeger, Paideia: The Ideals of Greek Culture, v. 3, p. 21
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MartinCothran
MartinCothran@MartinCothran·
@LiveOakPirate Why do you consider these applications as essential to astronomy and music rather than accidental? Because they were applied differently in some ways does not necessarily implicate their usefulness in learning.
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Live Oak Pirate
Live Oak Pirate@LiveOakPirate·
@MartinCothran In the modern world, Astronomy and music cannot reasonably be considered liberal arts. They are no longer used in the sciences of medicine, politics, etc. if we are going by the classical definition. We need to be intellectually honest.
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Jake
Jake@Le_Master·
Exactly right. And the final cause was always ascension through philosophy and finally theology. Those who formed, taught, and wrote within the actual historical education spoke of its purpose. It goes back to Plato in a lot of ways, but as you know it was Martianus Capella in antiquity in his De nuptiis where the arts were made canon. The arts are shown as attendants who escort philology upward to heaven. From then on you see them described similarly by all those who stress them. Clement and Origen call them handmaidens and preparation for higher wisdom in Jesus. Augustine, Nicomachus, Clement of Alexandria, Isidore, Boethius, Aquinas, Hugh of St Victor, Alexander of Aphrodisias, (to name only a few) - all speaking similarly. Cassiodorus spent a good part of his life writing the Institutiones where he provides an entire study of the seven liberal arts to prepare for a life of divine studies. He says the arts lead up to the stars. This purpose of reaching true theology was spoken of by Christians and pagans alike.
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Hieronymus
Hieronymus@Hierony49098392·
@MartinCothran I don’t think that reading the great books is the final cause of the liberal arts.
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MartinCothran
MartinCothran@MartinCothran·
I take this to be saying that classical education spends more time preparing students to read great books than in actually reading them, which is certainly and necessarily the case.
Brian Kemple@realbriankemple

The revival of classical education cannot be reduced to “read the Great Books.” That is a necessary part; but it is neither sufficient nor the place for education to start. Plato, Aristotle, Augustine, Dante, Aquinas, Shakespeare, and Dostoevsky are not magical talismans. Their greatness does not automatically transfer itself to the reader. One might read any great author—and miss almost everything they are truly saying, because one has not been educated to read them well. Do we still today possess the arts by which these texts can be truly read? Reading well is not passive reception but an act and even a habit of inquiring. It requires a myriad of cognitive activities, schooled in a tradition of grammar, logic, rhetoric, commentary, disputation, and teaching. Without these, even the greatest books can become little more than raw material for private opinion, cultural signaling, or—much oftener—ideological appropriation. Contemporary habits of reading are increasingly formed by skimming, excerpting, reacting, searching, and prompting or outsourcing to AI and to podcasts. Even if we do read these books, today, it is often under habits that make us incapable of truly understanding them. Does the renewal of education require more than recovering a canon? Indeed—it requires recovering the art of reading itself. Join us in this conversation.

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MartinCothran
MartinCothran@MartinCothran·
Well, properly speaking, it couldn't really be the final cause, at least early on, since the "great books" didn't exist. There were just books, some of which we have now deemed "great". But they were the "paths to the secrets of wisdom," mostly by preparing us to read what we now call the great books.
Hieronymus@Hierony49098392

@MartinCothran I don’t think that reading the great books is the final cause of the liberal arts.

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Ginny Gentles
Ginny Gentles@GinnyGentles·
"Everyone in higher education administration saw the enrollment cliff coming. They hired more administrators anyway." This also applies to K-12.
Aakash Gupta@aakashgupta

Universities had 17 years of warning. They responded by doing the opposite of what the math demanded. In 2008, American birth rates fell off a cliff. The Great Recession made people stop having kids. Those never-born children would be turning 18 right now. The number of U.S. high school graduates peaked at roughly 3.9 million in 2025. By 2029, that number drops 15%. By 2041, it drops by nearly half a million students per year. Every school in this tweet had access to the same Census data. They all saw the same curve. Administrative positions at U.S. colleges grew 60% between 1993 and 2009, ten times the rate of tenured faculty growth. Non-instructional spending (student services, administration) grew 29% from 2010 to 2018. Instructional spending grew 17%. Average tuition at public four-year schools went from $3,500 in 2000 to $10,560 in 2023. Yale now has more administrators than undergraduate students. 5,460 administrators for fewer than 5,000 undergrads. They built the cost structure of a growth company on top of a customer base that was mathematically guaranteed to shrink. The split in this data tells you everything. Clemson, Syracuse, Duke, UNC, and Indiana are all cutting because the model broke. Alabama, Ole Miss, and the University of Florida are turning away more applicants than ever. Harvard gets five applications for every spot. The middle is where the cliff hits. Elite schools absorb demand. Everyone between elite and community college fights over a shrinking pool. The Fed published a study in December 2024 predicting 80 colleges will close in the next five years. Since 2016, over 100 already have. In 2024 alone, 28 shut down. One per week. These program cuts and layoffs are a decade late. The birth rate data was sitting in Census spreadsheets the entire time. Everyone in higher education administration saw the enrollment cliff coming. They hired more administrators anyway.

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MartinCothran
MartinCothran@MartinCothran·
It also occurred to me that even the words "trivium" and "quadrivium" (the two branches of the liberal arts) betray the emphasis on the instrumental aspect of the liberal arts as arts: three "ways" and four "ways": "ways" suggesting their treatment as means rather than ends.
MartinCothran@MartinCothran

All of the arts can also be considered AS sciences (particularly the quantitative ones, like geometry), but as liberal ARTS, they are considered primarily as arts. Plato notably considers geometry primarily as a science.

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Jake
Jake@Le_Master·
@MartinCothran To which I agreed if you recall. I added that about the quadrivium also being sciences as clarification, not to dispute.
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MartinCothran
MartinCothran@MartinCothran·
@Le_Master I'm sympathetic to your position when it comes to the quadrivium, and, again, any art can be looked at in two different ways. But, still, if you are talking about even geometry AS A LIBERAL ART, it, as that label clearly suggests, is being considered primarily as an art.
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Jake
Jake@Le_Master·
That’s not right unless you use the word science equivocally in a modern sense. Science is episteme, and this was so for the ancients up until modern times, unqualified knowledge acquired through demonstration from first principles in a proper genus. Grammar, logic, and rhetoric aren’t sciences. For Plato, Aristotle, and the ancients geometry and arithmetic were “primary” in that they deal with magnitude and multitude, the first species of Quantity.
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John Barach
John Barach@John_Barach·
It is possible to love the classics and to read fun pulp literature and everything in between. You can be reading through War and Peace, while also reading, say, a Robert E. Howard short story and an Agatha Christie mystery, and enjoy all three.
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MartinCothran
MartinCothran@MartinCothran·
An art, properly speaking, is a skill, and is primarily a means to some science, which is a body of knowledge about something. Both involve knowing something, but for different purposes: the art for the purpose of knowing the science, and the science for knowing in itself.
Jake@Le_Master

Right they are arts in respect to their role as being teachable and formative to a man. Rational disciplines is a good way to consider them. But people need to also understand the four quantitative arts are indeed sciences. Importantly so because it is through what makes them sciences that the intellect is led to higher philosophy and theology.

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MartinCothran
MartinCothran@MartinCothran·
"We must love one another or die."—W. H. Auden, quoted by Joseph Epstein, The Idea of Culture, p. 34
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