Reve
1.8K posts
He is right. TigerBeetle is both a "niche" product and has a very cool static allocation scheme working nicely for their product. They could've very easily just use C or C++ and implement the same scheme.
Zig team is very VERY lucky to have Mitchell Hashimoto on their side. If it wasn't for him and the Ghostty project, I'd call Zig dead.
Phil Eaton@eatonphil
I mostly see the Bun and Zig situation the same way Ray described, if you'd actually like to understand it. I would differ in not mentioning TigerBeetle as a Zig flagship because their standards are so strict, and so few teams could do this, and basically no other Zig teams do (including the Zig team themselves), that the fact that they use Zig basically doesn't matter. Ghostty is probably a better flagship to talk about if one must.
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@Revenode It really isn't as hard as you imagine. Apart from some comptime "niceties" (which have their own issues) it's just about the same difficulty to do it in C. There are folks who did it before TigerBeetle and before Zig.
Don't be brainwashed.
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@Revenode They're extremely skilled and smart engineers. If Zig didn't exist and the team wanted to make TigerBeetle, they would still be able to do it just fine. I was specifically talking about the static allocation scheme.
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@Perpetualmaniac @theo Just use both then
Valgrind can catch different types of bugs than sanitizers
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Read this on stream earlier. Big mistake. I've never been so pissed off on camera.
I cannot fathom how anyone could publish an article like this. Andrew is a petty, evil man, and you should not trust any software he writes.
rohit@seatedro
crazy blogpost by andrew kelley just dropped
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@Perpetualmaniac @theo They ship ReleaseFast binary on Linux and doesnt use runtime assert which means it will segfault in some way (thats definitely preventable)
Zig also has valgrind support idk why they didnt use it
Thats basic correctness advice and not about “the art of programming” at all
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Zig doesn’t have memory safety, period. The bun team had to fork zig to add address sanitizer.
The language doesn’t have constructors or destructors, meaning memory safety is by convention only. There’s literally nothing you can do about it.
The language was designed this way.
That means every AI touching the codebase can trivially introduce horrible crash bugs. Saying people need to slow down on their way to making a billion dollars to respect the art of programming in zig means I want nothing to ever do with the language ever.
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@bcardarella @ZEROX90LLC And he can be petty about that too
Thats his personal blog after all
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@bcardarella @ZEROX90LLC Yea but they definitely can point out that this guy ruins my reputation by doing this and not doing this, something like that
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What makes this even dumber is that Andrew could have simply used this as a moment to congratulate the Bun team and wish them well, framing Zig as the reason they were able to build Bun and grow it to the point of acquisition. Instead, he went low.
There are so many OSS devs that are too emotionally wrapped up in what they think is their art, what they don't realize is they're really just buildina tool for people to get shit done.
If your tool is no longer the best way for someone to get shit done they'll just go use another tool. With AI that is truer than ever.
Theo - t3.gg@theo
Read this on stream earlier. Big mistake. I've never been so pissed off on camera. I cannot fathom how anyone could publish an article like this. Andrew is a petty, evil man, and you should not trust any software he writes.
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@bcardarella @ZEROX90LLC It makes sense cuz
- its his personal blog
- its petty because bun ruins zig reputation and he’s mad
It depends on how people look at it too
If they dont know the situation and just jump to the conclusion zig is bad then sure
But i dont think they would want those people either
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it's not in this thread but I said earlier that I don't even disagree with Andrew's sentiment, he's free to react and respond to things as he wants. The issue is with the optics of the article. It comes off as petty.
Maybe that's someone's first exposure to Zig. Maybe someone that was considering using Zig is now thinking otherwise. That's the problem I have with the article. It's simply bad leadership.
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@bcardarella @ZEROX90LLC Yea its like u cant control whether someone will shoot u in the foot either
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@Revenode @ZEROX90LLC but you can't control for that, it's absurd that you release something under MIT then get upset that people use it that don't have the same perspectives as you
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@speech_ka_ @tiredkebab It definitely can be excused if u know what bun did
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@tiredkebab it doesn't matter how much "sense" it "makes"
stop acting like this
stop excusing this
all he had to do is sit in his room and count to 1000, and then go internet and write a nice professional blog post, or write nothing
instead all of that negative energy is multiplied
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Kelley’s outrageous expression seems to make sense when you consider the unforgiving and thankless nature of open source software development.
But any developer ought to be aware of the pitfalls from day one.
You either get acquired or see your life’s work turn to dust.
rohit@seatedro
crazy blogpost by andrew kelley just dropped
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@bcardarella @ZEROX90LLC You dont seem to be mad at what bun does which leads to me thinking that the wording is more important to you than what they did?
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I disagree, too many OSS devs like to pretend they have some right to expect consumers of their efforts to interact with them a certain way. This is yet another example. I'll say it again, if the Zig team didn't like their interactions wit the Bun team they simply could have said "thanks, but no thanks".
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