Type_Other

@DruidofNecro @sartnow @ALYAPOH It maintains identical game theory calculus of how much you value your own life and others'. E.g. "Push a fat guy in the way" is no different from the normal trolley problem, killing one to save five.

@sartnow @ALYAPOH If you reframe it then its an entirely different situation

im team Red cause im selfish but how do you not understand a thought experiment this simple

@Capt_Thundr @UBERSOY1 100% of white people could hit blue, and would then need the remainder of the global population to form ~40% and pull them into surviving. If the "definitely don't die" button looks appealing enough to China, India, and Africa that 60% press it, everyone who bet on them is gone.

@Type_Other @UBERSOY1 That's why we valorise the exception. There are certain impracticalities that need to be accounted for, obviously, but I suspect that most people would *prefer* to press blue if they could be confident in the outcome. Whites have always been exceptional in this regard.

That button thing is really telling as to how libgoys will behave irrationally if they perceive the action as preventing harm. There are three outcomes You press red : Don't die Press blue: Die Press blue: (Majority!) Don't die No rational actor should ever press blue. The only excuse provided for doing so is that people who are gambling their lives for no gain could die. If they die, every blue button pusher chose it. There was no gain in doing what they did. Libtoid 'morality' is essentially saying that it is everyone's duty to help reckless individuals avoid the entirely preventable consequences of their own actions.

@patrickbutsmart If you're going to include "didn't vote" theoretically, but exclude "didn't vote" from consideration in any poll, then the poll results don't reflect the dilemma even in theory. Everyone interpreting >50% votes as a "blue victory" makes it abundantly clear the choice is binary.

@Type_Other You can just say you don't have a rebuttal and move on. You don't have to pretend otherwise, and given that you failed to rebuttal any of it, you aint going to be fooling anyone.

@patrickbutsmart I'll be sure to direct the thousands of people insisting "blue won" your way.

@Type_Other You are conflating people not voting on the poll with people abstaining from the vote. The poll itself is not the arbiter of which side "wins" but rather which side most people would pick. Remember, it says everyone in the world, that includes those incapable, blind or a child

@patrickbutsmart With that interpretation nobody would be saying "blue won." A binary was clearly intented and interpreted. If you include non-voters however you like, blue got "less than 50% of people" in every poll and all died.

@Type_Other abstaining is often not a poll option in a vote but is always an option. Yes, because the poll about the hypothetical isn't the actual hypothetical vote. If a poll about a vote asks who you are going to vote for but only mentions A or B. C can still be an option for the vote.

@SevyEngling @Literallyinsand @AlyeskaVtuber @therealchucko @CkarasuStream @0FedKin @theblessedsalt Irresponsible people are shooting up heroin too, but it's not my job to put my life on the line to confront them and snatch the needle from their hand. Do you do that? Clearly there's only so much risk we take trying to save the stupid from themselves; we're pressing red daily.

@Type_Other @Literallyinsand @AlyeskaVtuber @therealchucko @CkarasuStream @0FedKin @theblessedsalt None of this matters. "Some people will push blue against (what I perceive to be) their better judgement" is a 100% given fact, regardless of all of these things you're nitpicking. This has been clear as day from minute ONE. You cannot ignore all of it to justify yourself.

I think the Team Red people are just pretending not to get it at this point.

@patrickbutsmart You're altering it. Where is "abstain" in the twitter polls? Nobody puts it, yet you're not counting people who scroll past without voting, so it becomes impossible to contribute toward?

@Type_Other If you go into a voting booth, you will see abstain is not included as a poll option but is still an option. People ignoring the post and abstaining as part of the hypothetical are 2 different things. Abstaining has been victorious because blue has been majority so everyone wins.

@patrickbutsmart It is intended as a logical necessity because "abstain" has never been included as a poll option. If you consider it one, then "abstain" has been victorious in every poll so far because over 90% of people who saw them didn't vote for either option.

@Type_Other @Quirrel__ @bulgarbrutalit2 @UBERSOY1 "Has to" is an obligation, not a logical necessity. We know it is volatile as not everyone in the world is capable of pressing either buttons. So yes, people who are incapable of pressing either buttons are at risk if the majority press the red button.

@Literallyinsand @AlyeskaVtuber @therealchucko @CkarasuStream @0FedKin @theblessedsalt Or the askers just didn't consider how "everyone votes" is contradictory; some can't. We're left to guess at dumb mechanical issues like if blind people get braille, or assigned a coinflip. "What if the buttons are on the wall, and midgets can't reach the red one?" It's stupid.

@Type_Other @AlyeskaVtuber @therealchucko @CkarasuStream @0FedKin @theblessedsalt The reason it doesn't matter that much in the moral calculus is that there's already a large contingent of the mentally disabled population who does have the facilities to push the button, so you're just arguing semantics at the margins

@patrickbutsmart @Quirrel__ @bulgarbrutalit2 @UBERSOY1 It does. The choice is binary. Everyone has to vote, doing so by pressing red or blue.

@Type_Other @Quirrel__ @bulgarbrutalit2 @UBERSOY1 The hypothetical doesn't actually force you to press either buttons, but it does make it the voting mechanism. If capable of pressing blue, pressing neither buttons has no benefit, which is why no one considers pressing it. However, none pushers r still subject to die if red wins

@PaulP1534504 @HardwireMedia Then why accommodate the blind rather than force a random "vote" there too? Why grant temporary cognition to the brain damaged when it can just shock their body until they flail into a button? Is that a "vote"? There being other accommodations looks like it just hates newborns.

@Type_Other @HardwireMedia I wouldn't say that he added it so much as clarified that 'everyone' included everyone, but that infants probably wouldn't understand the problem and would just hit whatever button they happened to land on, not that a random choice would be made on their behalf.

These red-button reframings only make their case look worse. Of course framing matters. People are programmed not to jump into wood chippers or in front of trains. But in the original Tim Urban framing, a ton of kids would pick blue because it sounds like the brave, obvious “save everyone” choice. They’re not thinking game theory. They’re thinking: help the group, do the right thing, stop the train. So choosing red in that framing is basically abandoning the people most likely to be fooled by the premise, including children. That’s why the framing matters. It can literally create different moral realities. Red voters are chalked.

@Literallyinsand @AlyeskaVtuber @therealchucko @CkarasuStream @0FedKin @theblessedsalt It's not trivial. If the magical booth grants cognition enough to the guy severely brain damaged from a car accident and vegetative to be capable of expressing a desired outcome (it must--or he's not voting), then it's doing the same for newborns who can't even roll over yet.

@Type_Other @AlyeskaVtuber @therealchucko @CkarasuStream @0FedKin @theblessedsalt Ok, but that's just pedantic. There's plenty of people who are mentally incapable of understanding the consequences of their vote who would certainly be able to cast it in the first place.

@Quirrel__ @bulgarbrutalit2 @UBERSOY1 It's not covered, because the first line is everyone must vote using one of two buttons. "Neither" isn't accounted for.

@Type_Other @bulgarbrutalit2 @UBERSOY1 Unable to vote is covered by vote conditions. It's good you consider this but unable means endangered by selecting neither button, yet not contributing to blue majority.

@PaulP1534504 @HardwireMedia I love empowering everyone to vote since that seems like the original spirit of it and avoids contradiction. But many assume the coinflip idea, because one guy who posed it later added babies are included and random, which expands into the blind/etc also getting no accomodation.

@Type_Other @HardwireMedia I would assume that everyone gets instructions in a language they understand, so of course, the buttons for the blind are labeled in Braille. If this were ever to happen, it would take a nearly omnipotent being to do it, so why balk at the idea of it empowering people to choose?

@Capt_Thundr @UBERSOY1 Everyone votes red daily to not risk immediate death. It's just so obvious we don't recognize making a choice at all. With actual stakes (not twitter polls) we see fewer than one in a hundred will rush into burning buildings that may or may not even have anyone inside to rescue.

@Type_Other @UBERSOY1 I mean, this sounds like lolbertisms to me. If you do it globally then of course you don't trust low trust shitholes that want you dead and only gain with your destruction. But I have faith in first world countries. We literally voted majority blue once already.

@Capt_Thundr @UBERSOY1 There are also people who inject heroin every day, so is it your responsibility to put your life on the line confronting them and snatching their needle away? Do you do this? There's only so much we risk to try and save irresponsible people from their own poor decisions.

@UBERSOY1 People are stupid though and we live in the real world, there will always be people who go blue, so everyone should morally press it. Leftist sociopaths will press red, all this does is potentially one shot well-meaning normies. "Everyone vote for X" literally goes both ways.

@bulgarbrutalit2 @UBERSOY1 Forcing a coinflip on incapable individuals breaks the "everyone votes" premise--they aren't able to participate. They're being robbed of their vote. It's immediately contradictory unless the machine grants everyone the capacity to, which it must or we're all trapped.

@UBERSOY1 yeah but not everyone is rational. Think of all the babies who would die as a result of this

@PaulP1534504 @HardwireMedia Is it also granting sight to the blind so they're not forced into a random coinflip either? The moment someone isn't able to vote, "everyone votes" can't happen.

@Type_Other @HardwireMedia If a force exists powerful enough to teleport the vegetative person into a booth with two buttons, it's probably also powerful enough to give them consciousness for long enough to make that choice.

@AlyeskaVtuber @therealchucko @CkarasuStream @0FedKin @theblessedsalt It's not misunderstood; everyone can't vote. Forcing a coinflip by incapable individuals already broke the first premise--they weren't able to participate, so got robbed of their vote. That is unless the machine grants them the capacity to, which it must or we're all trapped.

@therealchucko @CkarasuStream @0FedKin @theblessedsalt i don't know how, "Everyone" and "Private vote", are consistently misunderstood by red buttoners to mean anything but what they say