James

I propose we stop using the term "Deuterocanonical Books" and go with "Christian Old Testament" instead. Because, by and large, the Christians used the Greek (LXX) Old Testament from the beginning.

@baileybrown @WindermereLarry @oliverburdick Though we still come to different conclusions, I can agree with both the sentiment and the statement - the Holy Spirit preserved what was needed.

I appreciate the depth here and I understand the historical arguments. We clearly land in different places on this but I respect the discussion. At the end of the day I trust that the Holy Spirit preserved what was needed. I don't think either of us are going to convince the other in a thread but I'm grateful for the conversation.

The Bible has 66 books, not 73.

@WindermereLarry @baileybrown @oliverburdick "The Jews" were not homogenous or all on the same page - even by 100AD, which is why the Talmud in 5th-century AD cites Sirach (Ben Sira) as Scripture - just for one example. And even if they *were* agreed a full century post-Resurrection...would it matter anymore?

@VerbumCatholic @baileybrown @oliverburdick The point is they were universally accepted as part of the Canon for 1100 years until Luther came along. You said they were added in 1550; they were subtracted by his group when he separated from the Church. The Jews used these books in Jesus time but deleted them circa 100 AD.

@benquivenit "Made of Orthodox Alloy"... What is that, brasszantium?

Someone already posted this but it’s happening again

@WindermereLarry @baileybrown @oliverburdick Point is that the New Testament books were not all "universally accepted" (if that means without any dispute recorded) and yet no one has successfully dropped *them* (yet) It did take almost 300 years after Luther to lose the Christian Old Testament in favor of the Jewish one.

@VerbumCatholic @baileybrown @oliverburdick Luther had no authority to do that. If he is your authority, then it has no credibility.

@oliverburdick What was the first Protestant Bible to not include the book of Tobit in its' Table of Contents? Why was the debate still going on *for Protestants* in the 19th century?

@baileybrown @WindermereLarry @oliverburdick It wasn't just the 7 books of the Christian Old Testament (and it wasn't even cleanly those 7 for the Old) - but the New Testament deuterocanon as well. This is why Luther de-numbered those disputed NT books as well.

with respect, the 7 additional books were not universally accepted by the early church and were never part of the Hebrew Scriptures that Jesus Himself read and quoted from. The Council of Trent formally added them in 1546 as a response to the Reformation, 1600 years is not accurate. The 66 books stand on their own and have never needed anything added to them.

@Jeremy_xyz @grok @TomorrowsWar I was a Baptist youth leader and music director. How I thought we got Bible was wrong was not what made me Catholic, but it did make me interested to know the truth. Here's a scan of Luther's (1522) Bible. He demoted both OT and NT books, though they all remained for 300 years

@grok @TomorrowsWar Why did Luther place them in the apocrypha?

Protestants: "We follow the Jews on the canon!" Said no faithful Christian ever… until Protestants.

@TNTJohn1717 *never part of the Masoretic text tradition from the 6th-10th centuries AD The Dead Sea Scrolls, Cairo Geniza, and Talmud all show Sirach (Wisdom of Ben Sira) as having a Hebrew original and was cited as Scripture up to the 6th-century AD. Here's a quote from the Talmud:

🚨‼️The “Luther removed books” line is one of the most repeated talking points, but it falls apart under even basic history. Those so-called missing books were never part of the Hebrew canon Jesus and the apostles used, and they were not treated as Scripture in the same way as the Law, Prophets, and Psalms. Even early church writers distinguished them from inspired Scripture. Ironically, the 1611 KJV included them in a separate section called Apocrypha for historical reading, not doctrine, which completely destroys the idea that Protestants were “removing Scripture.” What actually happened is Rome elevated those books later to support doctrines like purgatory that you cannot establish from the 66 books of Scripture. And that’s the real issue. If a doctrine is true, you don’t need extra books to prop it up. Jesus never taught purgatory, the apostles never preached it, and the Bible never defines it. So the question isn’t what Luther removed, it’s why Rome needed to add authority to books that were never on the same level as Scripture to begin with.

@TheIambicPen 🤣

Watching Dexter: Ancestral Sin, because original sin is a Latinization.

She did it again 👏🏽 Did the Catholic Church remove a commandment from the 10 commandments? ©️🎥 mariemazzanti

@uav_guy_79 @JimSanoBC79 I grew up memorizing the NIV in Awanas *Anything* you used in childhood has an influence - and one that's a lot harder to recognize.

@JimSanoBC79 I'm not much interested in the translational choices of the NIV, a translation which doesn't have much influence these days and I haven't used since childhood.

I learned why Protestants who read translations such as the NIV may have a hard time thinking Sacred Tradition is taught by Christ, Paul, and the Gospels. Paradosis is a Greek word meaning "tradition," "transmission," or "a giving over.” Anytime “tradition” is used in a positive

@uav_guy_79 @garyandglendah1 @JimSanoBC79 ESV has become my daily reader/default Of course it's not perfect, but it's easily readable and fairly solid. If you have Lexham, you probably have the UBS Translator's Handbook series (or access to get it in Logos, at least)

When Im studying a passage in detail: 1. NET, a colossus of scholarship with an ocean of fairly technical footnotes 2. LSB. The successor to the NASB and it is helpful to have "Yahweh" so you know YHWH is present. 3. Lexham. Digital only but also up to date and scholarly 4. ESV. Not my favorite but is effectively the "received translation" in the Reformed world.

@garyandglendah1 @JimSanoBC79 @uav_guy_79 Which of Wycliffe's superiors derided the base language of peasants? - surely there must be a primary source for that quote and not an oral tradition. And if the Bible specifies an Office of Teachers - how does one obtain this Office?

It’s a consequence of reading level in the United States. When Wycliffe requested permission to translate the Latin to English, his superiors derided the base language of the peasants. They saw it as destruction of the beauty of the Latin. Wycliffe argued that every man had a right to the Bible in their own tongue. So we have NIV as the most commonly used at 8th grade reading level, which is where the American reading level is. More or less, and the American 🇺🇸 literacy level continues to fall. This why the Bible specifies an office of teachers.

@ArchangeloRom @TaylorRMarshall This is why I have begun to *always* vote 3rd party whenever I have the option. I would rather write-in a good candidate than vote for a bad one (even a "less bad" one) Plus, you can't change a broken party by continually supporting it— It's a weird abusive relationship we have

@TaylorRMarshall Can’t vote for Democrats because they support infanticide and harming children with drugs and surgery. Can’t easily vote for Republicans because they are often lunatics who are actively trying to usher the antichrist into power, and openly admit it.

Catholic Cardinal Patriarch Pizzaballa vs. Dispensationalist Pete Hegseth: 💥

@joakim_ve @ReformedToRome @MateyYanakiev 3/ This Justification is transformative, giving us the grace to grow a little like a plant in poisonous soil re-potted in healthy ground. Though we have to *choose* to cooperate continually. Through God's grace, we actually become righteous or reject that grace and slowly die.

@joakim_ve @ReformedToRome @MateyYanakiev 2/ declaration of God alone. Meaning it happens like "Let there be light" or a judge's "case dismissed". On this view, the believer is not actually changed, but just declared Innocent Infusion of Grace (briefly) means that Christ paid for us and we ought to become like Him.../

Not gonna lie, PSA ascending.

Today I went to a park full of plum blossoms. They bloom here before the cherry blossoms, pushing through the cold while everything else is still bare. Everyone was taking photos. Me too. We were trying to capture the beauty and take it home. Painters do the same. But they have to stay with the scene. We don’t. So we never really learn to see it.

@Manuel_A_Abreu @art_is_found Luther demoted both the Christian Old Testament and the disputed New Testament books by un-numbering them, but even he did not remove them They remained in all Bibles until 200 years ago.

@art_is_found If they knew the history they would know that Martin Luther removed the same Old Testament canon as the Jewish authorities of his time, who did not recognize the deuterocanonical books… in short, the Jews removed the books after Jesus rose so they could deny him as Messiah…

the eucharist is literally the body of christ catholics have carried it through cities for two thousand years during war plague and persecution and now in america people think it shouldnt even be allowed in public as they carry out a war on behalf of israel just lmfao atp

@MattTestifies You don't need to explain any of those things unless you first assume the Great Apostasy is true *and* that Christianity needed restoration I don't need to prove that Santa *doesn't* live at the North Pole, have elves, or how he delivers presents in one night if Santa isn't real

If Joseph Smith was a fraud, you still have to explain the Book of Mormon, the doctrine, the witnesses, the fruit, and the staying power.