Daniel Ortner

@pimomormon Come Follow Me glosses over or skips so much. It's actually a really interesting story, but has been misused as an anti-masturbation polemic (which it isn't really about at all).

Genesis 38 was conveniently skipped over in come follow me this year. God kills two people, one for his wickedness, and one for ejaculating onto the ground. I wonder why Mormon leaders didn’t want us to understand that side of god?

@actsofapostles_ @TrueTTFaith @ThoughtfulSaint I don't know if I've read any of those. If you send links I will take a look. I know a lot about Hyde, Marsh, and White already.

Possibly. But I don’t think so. I think you are dramatically overestimating it. I don’t know if you’ve read my stories about Orson Hyde, Thomas B Marsh and Lyman White leaving the twelve. Or if you’ve read about Brigham Young’s dealings with the Godbe-ites. Or John F Boynton who left the original twelve and became a prolific inventor and stopped by Salt Lake as much as he could just to say hi to his old friends. Never rejoined the church but everyone was happy to see him. The belief that tons of people who have left are going to outer darkness has just never really been the vibe notwithstanding one or two quotes that maybe can be interpreted that way. But again this is all a non-sequitur.

Apparently not… —— But Jesus called them to him, and saith unto them, Ye know that they which are accounted to rule over the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and their great ones exercise authority upon them. But so shall it not be among you: but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister: And whosoever of you will be the chiefest⁠, shall be servant of all… But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.

@TrueTTFaith @actsofapostles_ @ThoughtfulSaint Sure, but these are two texts from the same author received within less than a year of each other. Given the close timing and wording, I think it's safe to interpret them as referring to the same condition of those in outer darkness.

@dortner1 @actsofapostles_ @ThoughtfulSaint And I am saying, that just because there is similarity within the freezing that it doesn't necessarily mean the same thing.

@actsofapostles_ @TrueTTFaith @ThoughtfulSaint I think you are dramatically underestimating how this doctrine was taught/understood in previous generations and how that way of thinking still influences how it's talked about.

@dortner1 @TrueTTFaith @ThoughtfulSaint Yeah, I disagree but all that is a non-sequitur. Zac is claiming that members are telling him he’s going to outer darkness. I guarantee you nobody tells him that, nobody thinks that and when he was a member he didn’t either. Why do ex-mo’s do that? It is so weird.

@TrueTTFaith @actsofapostles_ @ThoughtfulSaint That's not relevant. I'm talking specifically about how it's used in D&C 76 and 84 to refer to those in outer darkness.

@dortner1 @actsofapostles_ @ThoughtfulSaint And many verses in Matthew show Christ talking about people being cast into outer darkness, but in Latter-Day Saints thought this is not taught as actual outer darkness, but as the punishment that comes between death and the resurrection for those who do not repent.

@actsofapostles_ @TrueTTFaith @ThoughtfulSaint I actually think the interpretation that almost no one ends up in outer darkness is the misinterpretation, if you are judging by canonized scripture alone. But I agree that it is the modern consensus.

Sure. But if they turn back to Christ they are forgiven by Christ. Christ is the only one who can forgive sins. I assume when you were a member you agreed with me on that. I mean yeah, somebody could interpret it that if you leave the church you get outer darkness. But nobody does. Cause we als have the rest of the scriptures that makes that interpretation not feasible. And until somebody does misinterpret it in that way I’m not sure what you are trying to convince me of. That our doctrine can be misinterpreted if scripture proofed? Yeah. I know that.

@ThoughtfulSaint Sorry to hear about his health. We've had our issues, but I'm praying for his recovery.

A friend of mine in the LDS apologetics space is facing some health issues. If you have means to assist it would mean a lot. gofundme.com/f/medical-expe…

@DavidLezette @BlackBlessedLDS @BeeW1736886 D&C 84:33-34 on particular seems to link being part of the Church and kingdom and elect of God with obtaining the two priesthoods. That language is very similar to what is used in D&C 76:52-57 to describe those who receive the Celestial Kingdom

@dortner1 @BlackBlessedLDS @BeeW1736886 I'm getting my family ready for our evening activities so I don't have time to read all of section 84. If you have a few verses you'd like for me to review, I will.

You’re conflating the bare minimum to enter the Celestial Kingdom with Exaltation which is the highest degree within the Celestial Kingdom. My OP stands as is.

@TrueTTFaith @actsofapostles_ @ThoughtfulSaint No forgiveness "in this world nor in the world to come" is the EXACT SAME language D&C 76:34 uses to describe those in outer darkness.

@dortner1 @actsofapostles_ @ThoughtfulSaint

@DavidLezette @BlackBlessedLDS @BeeW1736886 Not sure if you saw my other comments to that post about the endowment and D&C 84, but I'd be interested in your thoughts if you have a chance.

@dortner1 @BlackBlessedLDS @BeeW1736886 I understand the confusion, but I'm fairly confident (perhaps incorrectly) that the Endowment is not required for the lowest level of the Celestial Kingdom. I think President Oaks recently talked about the three degrees of Celestial glory. churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-…

@jaredadairbell That's definitely a possible reading, but one that really only develops a few decades later. Anyways, I think the ambiguity is very real given how people would use celestial as a term to refer to the heavens generally.

@dortner1 I see. I thought it was a question of the source, my apologies. I take it to mean what our current prophet has said: there are three degrees of glory within the celestial kingdom.

Bro, this is Celestial Kingdom knowledge 101. How you can you be a trusted antagonizer of the Church if you don’t even know there are three degrees within the celestial kingdom?

@actsofapostles_ @TrueTTFaith @ThoughtfulSaint I was reading D&C 84 in the context of another conversation. Look at v 39-41, those who break the oath and covenant of the priesthood are described as not having "forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come." Sounds a lot like those bound for outer darkness, no?

@dortner1 @TrueTTFaith @ThoughtfulSaint I’m not going to ignore it but I’ll interpret it the way that makes the most sense in regards to all of the scriptures and the writings of the GAs. I don’t scripture proof.

@DavidLezette @BlackBlessedLDS @BeeW1736886 But also look at D&C 84: 33-34 which closely links being "faithful unto obtaining these two priesthoods" with being part of "the church and the kingdom and the elect of God." The language here has parallels to D&C 76's depictions of the Celestial Kingdom.

@BlackBlessedLDS @dortner1 @BeeW1736886 It is my understanding that Faith in Christ, Repentance, Baptism by proper priesthood authority, Receiving the Gift of the Holy Ghost and enduring till the end are the only things that are required for the lowest level of the Celestial Kingdom.

@DavidLezette @BlackBlessedLDS @BeeW1736886 Part of the problem is that when D&C 76 was written Joseph Smith had little to no conception of the endowment or sealing ordinances. So it's hard to know how these later ordinances fit with the earlier theology.

@DavidLezette @BlackBlessedLDS @BeeW1736886 I would have based my interpretation first and foremost on the temple and the ordinance one needs to do in order to go through the veil into the celestial room.

@DavidLezette @BlackBlessedLDS @BeeW1736886 That's the interpretation I hear often on here. It's not the interpretation I had when I was LDS. I would have said that priesthood ordination and the endowment were ordinances of the Celestial Kingdom while the sealing ordinance was the one linked to the highest degree.

@olseaj @AtiliusAtlas @Mormonger @Truth_matters20 It doesn't. It just further demonstrates how unique Jesus is from the fallen and corrupt leaders who were mockingly referred to as gods by the Psalmist

@dortner1 @AtiliusAtlas @Mormonger @Truth_matters20 Yes, the lesser being us. We are called Gods. The greater is Jesus- he is God’s anointed chosen Son. If we are Gods, then certainly He is. The argument falls apart if we are in fact not gods according to scripture.

Mormonism destroyed in a single verse: "Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me." —Isaiah 43:10

@olseaj @AtiliusAtlas @Mormonger @Truth_matters20 He's contrasting the lesser with the greater. He's saying if the scriptures even used that term for fallen heavenly beings or corrupt human judges, how much more appropriate is it for the one who truly came from heaven and is truly divine.

@dortner1 @AtiliusAtlas @Mormonger @Truth_matters20 If Jesus is not saying that Psalms 82 is saying we are Gods, then his argument makes no sense.

@jaredadairbell The question is what does he mean by "in the Celestial glory?" Is that about the Celestial Kingdom or is it a more general description of heaven (as Paul uses the term celestial in Cor 15 for instance). So I'm not sure this resolves the ambiguity.

@dortner1 The article was written in April 2018. Vol 12 of the Joseph Smith Papers was released in April 2021. In it, theres a journal entry (image below) written in 1843 by William Clayton. Hope this helps.

@plasmarob @Mormonger @Truth_matters20 But you are reading it out of context and missing all of the many places where Jesus is empathizing that he alone is truly God. I pray that God will open your eyes as you keep studying the Gospel of John. That's what he did for me 🙏

@dortner1 @Mormonger @Truth_matters20 I'm just reading the verses