@ProtPhilosopher Sir can u write it next time on a computer bc ur handwriting is not the best with all due respect
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will
559 posts
will
@epke82
Universalism (not pluralism) discord server https://t.co/tkGjffrNKX
Katılım Temmuz 2022
26 Takip Edilen6 Takipçiler
Cleave's argument is neither simple nor sound. If you have a way of completing the argument so that it's logically valid, please propose it. Otherwise, it's invalid and hence unsound. Further, as Sean Luke and others have pointed out at least one premise is false, which also makes the argument unsound. I'd pick premise 4. It's possible that tradition is not infallible and interpretation is not infallible yet there is objective truth concerning Scripture's interpretation. Infallibility and objectivity can come apart in epistemology. For instance, tradition and interpretation may possibly err (i.e., not be infallible) yet may succeed in functioning properly and securing warranted beliefs concerning stance-independent facts.
CleavetoAntiquity@C2Antiquity
If Protestantism is true, then the Bible lied and Christianity is false: Protestants hold to Sola Scriptura “The Bible Alone” as their sole infallible authority for matters of faith, and claim no tradition or interpretation is infallible. If no infallible tradition or interpretation is possible, then there is no objective truth in matters of interpretation of the scripture. If this is the case the Bible lied when it declared “The Church is the ground and pillar of truth.” (1 Timothy 3:15) If the scripture lied, the author is a false prophet according to the standards of scripture. (Deuteronomy 18:22) Which would disprove Christianity itself.
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@adevarat_iacob @mattjhedges11 Can you give some proof haven’t heard of this
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@mattjhedges11 The main criticism is actually that no bishop would ordain him so he went shopping for one who didn’t know who he was.
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EOs when Cleave apostatized: “TOP PROTESTANT APOLOGIST CONVERTS!!”
EOs when a trained priest like Joseph Schooping becomes Protestant: “Totally uneducated.”
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@ChristandGuitar Yeah the emotionalism accusation is cope, Gavin posits a range of arguments, biblical and historical. They themselfs even frame calvinism as being more monstrous and exclusivistic, refuting their own accusation against Gavin.
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This conversation between Gavin Ortlund and Fr. Stephen De Young provided excellent clarification between Protestantism and Eastern Orthodoxy.
Some thoughts:
- De Young was quick to frame Ortlund's refusal to accept EO as the "one true church" as simple emotionalism. I think this is still cope for not understanding how someone could intellectually not agree with EO. Gavin does offer clarification, but I'm not convinced that it stuck very well for De Young.
- For most of the video, Ortlund is asking the same exact question (Are Protestants "real" Christians?) multiple times with different wording, with De Young dancing around a non-conclusive answer.
He did finally answer with what I've suspected for a while: The answer is yes, but EO refuse to say "yes" because they don't want to give people a reason to leave the church.
- I really really appreciate how candid these two were able to be
- I love that they were able to end the video with sharing the Gospel
I highly recommend watching this. It's actually a very positive and informative conversation.
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@IHaveAyytism @DogfaceBeerHole @mattcrotts I heard that from multiple sources even from an EO
You may be right that its overstated idk
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@epke82 @DogfaceBeerHole @mattcrotts Myth and slander, having a notoriously passionate distaste for a language ≠ ignorance, illiteracy, or lack of proficiency in a language. I would look no further than the humorous short essay, “The Awful German Language” by Mark Twain.
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Ironically, it's SDY's Reformed seminarian roots (Westminster TS) coming out in that clip, not his Orthodox priesthood
Did St. Seraphim of Sarov know Aramaic? St. Sergius of Radonezh have to learn Hebrew or Greek to have compelling views on the Bible?
But a Dutchman with rigorous academic heritage in ANE studies, is going to pull an 'original language' card. I admire it!
People are taking a shot at the king because he's a Tucker guest, but beneath those robes is a well-seasoned student of Western higher education.
Don't get in the ring with hybrid creatures like SDY! You're not ready for it
Louis@Louisfzjx
This was a call in show. A Catholic man tried to discuss something but SDY said “you have no authority to speak bc you are BENEATH A LAY PERSON “ Then they disconnect him
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@PenitentColumbo @johncdirks Ur second paragraph goes Ortho reasoning, 2nd commandment is not understood as total prohibition of images, bc cherubim, bronze snake & temple art.
Thus 2nd command is understood as only against idols. Thus Nno exceptions bc NT incarnation
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I saw elsewhere you stating discomfort with typology. But typology is usually the way the Bible interprets itself
That said, the 2nd commandment is actually an exception. Deuteronomy 4 explains the prohibition of images by explaining that God did not show Moses a form on Mt. Horeb
Obviously, that changes with the Incarnation.
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I am unconvinced that the doctrine of Icon Veneration can be substantiated biblically and its historical ground is dubious to say the least…
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@C2Antiquity It's a non sequitur to say 1 Timothy 3:15 therefore infallible magisterium
Furthermore where is the infallible interpretation of the infallible conciliar propositions? And then how do you infallibly know that to be infallible?
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If Protestantism is true, then the Bible lied and Christianity is false:
Protestants hold to Sola Scriptura “The Bible Alone” as their sole infallible authority for matters of faith, and claim no tradition or interpretation is infallible.
If no infallible tradition or interpretation is possible, then there is no objective truth in matters of interpretation of the scripture.
If this is the case the Bible lied when it declared “The Church is the ground and pillar of truth.” (1 Timothy 3:15)
If the scripture lied, the author is a false prophet according to the standards of scripture. (Deuteronomy 18:22)
Which would disprove Christianity itself.
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@johncdirks @Nicholai_Korea Nikolai his notion leads to this imo: The "Visible Church" (EO juristictions) is a mere Sub-Set of the "True Church."
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Had a conversation with @Nicholai_Korea about salvation in orthodoxy. Very interesting discussion. Premieres tonight at 7:00pm.
youtu.be/YhmOUvHW6NM
YouTube
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@TheTikkiTavi @johncdirks @thechurchsplit Idk where you go to but I never see private parts, its only in the urinals when they have it out which are usually blocked off
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@johncdirks @thechurchsplit With all due respect, I don’t want my daughters seeing other men half naked. I’ve been in way too many restrooms when men have way too much hanging out. If a grown woman can’t hold her bladder for 60 seconds so my daughters can keep their innocence, I’m sorry 🤷♂️
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If you’re a girl dad you either bring your girls in the men’s or you go to the girl’s.
Men’s bathrooms are notorious for being disgusting or men being indecent. So a dad choosing to take his girls to the ladies makes perfect sense.
Stop. Shutting. Down. Fathers.
kira 👾@kirawontmiss
Girl dad goes viral after getting confronted after he brings his two daughters into the women bathroom 😬
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@SmegmaKingIV @hayasaka_aryan Hanging is much too lenient. Bring out the medieval torture methods
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@hayasaka_aryan I want everyone even tangentially associated with this tried and hung on live television.
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“Social services called a 13 year old girl racist and recommended contraceptives to her instead of denouncing her Pakistani rapists”
“Social services returned a girl to a grooming gang to not be racist”
Rupert Lowe MP@RupertLowe10
The Rape Gang Inquiry Report. bit.ly/4uE5odw
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@Nicholai_Korea No he is mutulating the text of his conciliar and authoritative documents to shoehorn in his qualifications
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No Jonathan applied basic interpretation framework that you'd do for any text
🎸 Matt 🎸@ChristandGuitar
The recent Gavin Ortlund and Jonathan Pageau video focused a lot on the Synod of Jerusalem (1672). It highlighted a major issue in these discussions: Gavin read its strong language with firmness. Jonathan applied more modern nuance. Thread 🧵👇🏻
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@Nicholai_Korea You've gotta realize that when a certain group of people have gaslit themselves into thinking they can scientifically determine the meaning of a text in an isolated setting, that it doesn't even matter what kind of framework one person uses over another.
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St Augustine, On Christian Doctrine (Book II):
"The knowledge of the original languages is necessary... so that recourse may be had to the earlier texts when the endless diversity of Latin translators gives rise to doubt."
St Clement of Alexandria, "The scriptures are to be understood by diligent inquiry"
St. Theodore of Mopsuestia: "The first task of the interpreter is to discover what the sacred writer intended."
DogfaceBeerHole: "This feels like a really obvious and low tier concept."
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@MrsRomano6 “Mommy I did a latria to icon of Christ bc he’s God so it’s allowed” oopsie daisy you just did a idolatry
An iconophile theologian contemporary to Nicaea 2 allowed this btw, but was contradicted by Nicaea 2
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@epke82 Yes I do. I think children have an innate understanding of God as Spirit. I think they have a deep understanding of how the temporal and material world that they’re in is only a reflection of their Creator
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@MrsRomano6 Respectfully that is highly irresponsible, John of Damascus was the first to formalise this distinction according to Metr. Ware, early Christians were opposed to icon veneration.
Fr Richard Price even notes that the theologians in the 8th century contradicted themselves on this
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@MrsRomano6 Furthermore it’s being negligent of the biblical command to flee from idolatry imo, instead flirting with it
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@epke82 Children see images all day every day. Unless they are raised by Amish. Children also hug and kiss stuffed animals and dolls.
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@MrsRomano6 Considering that failing to be mindful of that distinction is idolatry, I find it highly irresponsible to let teach little children to participate in such practise, I think that even if I were to be Orthodox I would hold that view.
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@MrsRomano6 These examples you raise aren’t really similar. They are not told to venerate the sacred dolls and generic images
They are here in contrast told to venerate the sacred images of Christ and the Saints.
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