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Layne_H_Brotato
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Layne_H_Brotato
@manmotion
Artist, Maker of motion graphics (and a Lefty). let's just be smart. Yes, smart does include God. https://t.co/9iB4NVWWh6
Missouri, USA Katılım Haziran 2011
1.8K Takip Edilen805 Takipçiler
@jaredadairbell @Lew541207 I like to think that God is truely powerful because he chooses to do right not because he can't do wrong.
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No church has dared to suggest that God could fall; that God could CEASE to be God.
This teaching of “God is unable or cannot do wrong”makes me more sympathetic to atheism.
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The time frame for the dictation is pretty well set. Oliver Cowdery had never met Joseph Smith before April 5th 1829, and the entire Book of Mormon minus a couple of pages was in his handwriting and it was finished before the end of June 1829. And that included multiple other revelations and moving 100 miles during that same time.
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@jefe_tweets To be fair, I don't believe he did it in 60 days. That would mean believing a lair. I'm sure it took him a lot longer. So, no other explanation needed.
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@DavidLeeGenesis @jefe_tweets Not to mention this is the only reference to Joseph's storytelling at all. and it's from his mom and a glowing tribute biography to her recently assassinated son. Why does not a single other record say anything similar. I mean they had plenty to say.
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He was reciting the story to family for years before the actual dictation.
“In the course of our evening conversations, Joseph would give us some of the most amusing recitals that could be imagined. He would describe the ancient inhabitants of this continent, their dress, mode of traveling, and the animals upon which they rode; their cities, their buildings…” - Lucy Smith referring to time period of 1823-1827
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People denied God a voice. It was the same thing that happened over and over again in the past. There are hundreds of years of gaps between prophets that revealed Gods word. In fact it was 400 years since a prophet when Christ came on the scene and he ran into the same problem - the people told him the scriptures were sufficient and why was Jesus bringing new revelation from God.
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@baine53 @Sacramentshow @jaredadairbell The problem is what is the evidence that the church was lost and what was the cause?
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I could talk about the Great Apostasy for days.
I think It’s one of the most interesting topics of conversation for Latter-day Saints.
Saying “Jesus failed” when the Church apostatized is like saying “God failed” when Adam and Eve partook of the fruit.
The Sacrament Show. - Vox@Sacramentshow
Mormonism says the Gospel was lost for nearly 1800 years, which means Jesus either failed to preserve His Church or waited almost two millennia to fix it through a guy in New York.
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Why downplay a valid point? In Joseph Smith's day, the idea of extensive ancient records on metal plates (especially gold, in a stone box) was widely mocked as ridiculous by newspapers and skeptics. Yet later archaeology confirmed the practice: Darius I's gold/silver plates (Persepolis, discovered 1930s), other ancient examples with rings, writing, and burial methods. JS was supposed to be shrewd "conman." If he was fabricating a story, why pick something that invited many decades of ridicule instead of borrowing from known 1820s scholarship? One "lucky guess" is odd. But across linguistics (Hebraisms, chiasmus), geography (Nahom), witnesses (11 who never recanted), rapid dictation under tight constraints (uneducated farmer, 60 days), and all the logistics? The cumulative improbabilities strain "just lucky." History has no close parallel for this kind of lucky. It's cumulative luck on a scale that has never been matched.
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@Primary_Pianist Aha! Those evil anti-mormons from... 1830... have been defeated...
This is the kind of thing that it is silly to draw narratives from
People in the 1830s had limited knowledge
There are still serious issues with the gold plates, but people writing on gold itself is not a...
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“Anti-Mormons in 1830: ‘Nobody in the ancient world wrote on metal plates. That’s absurd.’
Archaeology: ‘…about that.’”
Ransome Bartlemew@Bar_tolmi
Look they found the gold plates of Joseph Smith! No actually it's from Iran, and totally unrelated to the Book of Mormon.
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@PurestZinc Wait, you think physical limitations will perpetuate in the after life? So someone born with no arms will be in heaven with no arms, etc...
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Mormons believe that retards go straight to the highest level of heaven.
Mormons also believe the people in the highest level of heaven become gods and the god of this world was once a human.
So you have to wonder, was the mormon god retarded?
It would explain their theology.
The Primary Pianist@Primary_Pianist
“Mormonism means Jesus failed to preserve His Church.” Only if your Bible is missing, like, the entire Bible. The scriptural pattern is God establishing a covenant people, watching them drift into apostasy, and then sending prophets to correct, warn, restore, and gather. That is not an embarrassing exception to the Bible. That is the plot of the Bible. Paul literally warned of “grievous wolves,” disciples being drawn away, and a “falling away” before the coming of Christ. So the Restoration is not “Jesus failed.” It is “humans apostatized, and God restored.” Again.
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Prophecies can be contingent on other factors or even a command that is mistaken for a prophecy. Joseph Smith didnt have any false prophecies. Only if you interpret them incorrectly or rely on hearsay.
Many Old Testament prophecies were also conditional if the people repent or had dual and ongoing fulfillments that unfolded over centuries. Not always neatly within the prophets lifetime. Jesus himself reinterpreted some of them in ways that werent obvious at first.
Take D&C 87 given December 25 1832 nearly 30 years before the Civil War. Verily thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls. And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations beginning at this place. For behold the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States and the Southern States will call on other nations even the nation of Great Britain and then war shall be poured out upon all nations. And slaves shall rise up against their masters who shall be marshaled and disciplined for war.
This was public knowledge and published well before Fort Sumter. South Carolinas rebellion the North South division Britains involvement they considered recognizing the Confederacy slave uprisings and the conflict escalating into wider international tension all line up in remarkable detail for something spoken decades earlier.
Critics often the Independence temple D&C 84 as failed. But that revelation includes clear conditional language tied to the faithfulness and repentance of the people and the Saints were driven out of Missouri by mobs. Many biblical prophecies about Zion or temples also point to future or millennial fulfillment rather than immediate box checking. Joseph repeatedly taught that some things were commandments to act on in faith not ironclad timelines that ignore human agency.
On hearsay and unreliable sources critics often pull failed prophecies from second or third hand accounts written years later by hostile witnesses. Josephs actual recorded revelations like D&C and contemporary eyewitness statements hold up far better. For example in fall 1833 Joseph was preaching in Kirtland when he declared in front of members and skeptical non members one of whom wrote it down on the spot that forty days shall not pass and the stars shall fall from heaven. On the 39th night came the greatest meteor shower in recorded history the 1833 Leonid shower described by eyewitnesses including Joseph himself as stars falling like hailstones. Even critics present were stunned. That wasnt vague retrofitting it was public timed and fulfilled exactly.
The double standard is real. Vague or symbolic Bible prophecies get more fully fulfilled with Jesus as you said while Smiths get called retroactive musings. Both sets of scriptures reward careful consistent reading in context not the harshest literalism only when it suits the critic.
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@AlderNate @manmotion Vague musings retroactively being read as completed prophecies are not fulfilled prophecies. Old Testament prophecies were fulfilled within or shortly after the prophets life, and then more fully fulfilled with Jesus.
Smith made concrete prophecies that were flat out false.
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One thing I’ve always found interesting is the double standard many anti-LDS critics use.
When it comes to the Book of Mormon, critics suddenly become hardcore materialists. They demand archaeological evidence, scientific proof, DNA evidence, historical records, geography, etc. They act as though a religious text can only be true if every detail is already fully verified by modern academia.
Yet when atheists use those exact same arguments against the Bible — questioning miracles, Exodus, Noah’s flood, resurrection accounts, authorship, archaeology, or supposed contradictions — many of those same critics immediately switch positions and say things like: “You have to take it on faith.” “Not everything can be proven scientifically.” “God is bigger than human evidence.”
So which is it?
If faith is a valid principle for the Bible, why is it suddenly invalid for the Book of Mormon?
And honestly, the claim that there is “zero evidence” for the Book of Mormon just isn’t true. Over time, more evidence continues to emerge involving ancient Semitic writing styles, Hebraisms, ancient Middle Eastern cultural parallels, chiasmus, NHM/Nahom, ancient cement references, metal plates, and other details Joseph Smith realistically could not have fabricated in 1829 as an uneducated farm boy.
People are free to reject LDS beliefs, but the inconsistency is hard to ignore. Too often the standard becomes: “Faith and incomplete evidence are acceptable for my religion, but not for yours.”
As Christians, we should all be honest and consistent in how we evaluate faith, history, and evidence.
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@xavi87319 @AlderNate The LDS claim is not disproven by DNA, in fact it is actually unlikely that we would find any DNA evidence if we stick to what LDS actually claim. Making a claim that LDS aren't making and then knocking it down is called a strawman fallacy.
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You must be only looking at critical resources then. Because there is ample evidence for Joseph Smith as a prophet. He had hundreds of prophecies come true. Only purposely ignoring information and misinterpreting Joseph Smith will make you think he had false prophecies. I dare you to do some real research.
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@AlderNate Christianity is incredibly robust in its historicity. Mormonism is not. Joseph Smith's prophecies were false and didn't come to pass. He made extreme claims that would require extreme evidence and all of them were wrong.
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@Bar_tolmi Bold move to cite a nonexistent 16th-century book invented in a 2000 conspiracy tome. Next you'll tell me Joseph copied from the Lost Tribes of Hogwarts too.
Haha.
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Joseph Smith stole from many sources for the Book of Mormon like the apocrypha (Tobit, Maccabees, Judith), Methodist sermons, and the story of Madoc (Madog) and other esoteric teachings.
"In the Book of Mormon, Nephi writes:
"I Nephi, being born of goodly parents, therefore I was taught somewhat in all the learning of my father;...there I make a record of the proceeding of my days". (1 Nephi 1:1)
In the Book of Madog, by John Dee:
"I, Madog, born of goodly parents, was taught somewhat in the learning of my father, nevertheless having seen many afflictions, therefore I make a record in my day as a vagabond upon the face of the earth." (Madog 3:1)
Madog was a Welsh prince who purportedly sailed to America in the 12th century. They had wars with the Indians. The son of Madog was Mor Awnyry (pronounced "More-On-ih-rih")"
Joseph Smith was a known freemason and scryer and incorporated lots of esoteric secret society mythology into the Book of Mormon.
Pearl of Kevin Price@PearlKevinPrice
Mormons refuse to acknowledge the possibility of Joseph Smith having prepares for months or years before dictating the Book of Mormon. Against Edward’s wishes I asked his own question to Gemini and I am even more convinced that Smith deeply rehearsed the BoM. Read what AI said:
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Layne_H_Brotato retweetledi
For 160 years, "Nahom" in the Book of Mormon was a name that didn't exist anywhere on Earth.
Joseph Smith dictated it in 1829 — the desert place where Ishmael was buried in 1 Nephi 16:34. The text uses the passive: "the place which was CALLED Nahom." Lehi (a prophet in the BofM) didn't name it. It was already there.
In 1988, German archaeologists excavating the Bar'an Temple at Marib in Yemen recovered three votive altars donated by men of the NHM tribe — dated to the 7th–6th centuries BC. Same name. Same century. Same region.
In Hebrew, NHM means "to comfort." In Arabic, NHM means "to mourn." Both meanings collapse onto the very moment a father-in-law was buried in the wilderness.
How could a 23-year-old farmboy in upstate New York have named an Arabian tribal burial ground in 1829 that wasn't excavated until 1988?
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Goes right along with this video I did a short time ago x.com/i/status/20329…
Justin Hart@justin_hart
For 160 years, "Nahom" in the Book of Mormon was a name that didn't exist anywhere on Earth. Joseph Smith dictated it in 1829 — the desert place where Ishmael was buried in 1 Nephi 16:34. The text uses the passive: "the place which was CALLED Nahom." Lehi (a prophet in the BofM) didn't name it. It was already there. In 1988, German archaeologists excavating the Bar'an Temple at Marib in Yemen recovered three votive altars donated by men of the NHM tribe — dated to the 7th–6th centuries BC. Same name. Same century. Same region. In Hebrew, NHM means "to comfort." In Arabic, NHM means "to mourn." Both meanings collapse onto the very moment a father-in-law was buried in the wilderness. How could a 23-year-old farmboy in upstate New York have named an Arabian tribal burial ground in 1829 that wasn't excavated until 1988?
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@xenovigor It's the Same gospel that Paul discribes(1 Corinthians 15:1-11)
Same Jesus. You should be worried that non biblical creeds are a different gospel.
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why do you mock Paul's attitude instead of embracing it?
"I am afraid, however, that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may be led astray from your simple and pure devotion to Christ. For if someone comes and proclaims a Jesus other than the One we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit than the One you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it way too easily." 2 Corinthians 11:4
"For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders that would deceive even the elect, if that were possible." Matthew 24:24
he was chosen by God to be an example for us to imitate, as he imitated Christ. if he was concerned about "another Jesus" then we should be too.
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It's rather odd that so many Christians seem to think that there is more than one Jesus. (Just ask them about "Mormons")
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None of those classical attributes as you define them are required by the Bible itself. Scripture shows a dynamic relational God who interacts responds and changes course in time. That doesnt fit the later Greek plato package of strict atemporality absolute impassibility and simplicity. You say they dont preclude dynamism but in practice they do. An atemporal God can't truly respond in time. An impassible God cant be affected by our prayers or sins in any real way. An immutable God who relents becomes pure metaphor. See Ex 32:14 Jonah 3:10 Jer 18:7-10. Appreciate you exempting passions. But the text shows real anger grief regret Gen 6:6 and heartache Hos 11:8 that go beyond metaphor. I take the Bibles own portrayals more seriously than non biblical creeds centuries later. God walks in the garden Gen 3:8 wrestles Jacob face to face Gen 32 eats with Abraham Gen 18 shows His back to Moses Ex 33. John 4:24 is about worship not proving zero form. Resurrected Jesus has flesh and bones Luke 24:39 and is fully God. Gen 1:26 in our image after our likeness points to real embodiment. You should read more biblical scholarship. The Restoration takes the relational embodied Father language more literally without 4th-5th century filters. You called it blasphemy after citing plain verses. Screaming Blasphemy is just holier than thou posturing. lets talk divine council Ps 82 John 10 or God repenting in the text. The God who made us in His image invites us to know Him John 17:3 as real Father.
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none of the things I said prevent God from being dynamic and relational, or having incarnate action in the world. they are not mutually exclusive.
i specifically exempt passions.. failure to read; lazy learner detected. you tell me to steelman in the same moment you are attacking your mental schema of the average "creedal" evangelical and ignoring what i said explicitly. i am not interested in discourse with an automatic dialogue tree you have prepared in your mind
i said i was flabbergasted that you were able to say those things without a twinging in your conscience about blasphemy, and i genuinely meant that. that was the one moment where i sat for at least 30 minutes praying and wondering how it is possible to be disposed in such a way. it wasn't a polemic; i love Mormons and grew up having many LDS friends.
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My 10 year old has been dealing with anti mormons online saying we believe God is an Alien.
I've never heard this before.
Is this the same idea as us being "athiest"?
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Appreciate the passion, but Those classical attributes are not as explicit in Scripture as you claim. The Bible is not univocal, and honest biblical scholarship shows a far more dynamic, relational God than the later Greek philosophy version you are defending. The Hebrew Bible is full of God with form, acting in space and time. He walks in the garden (Gen 3:8), wrestles Jacob face to face (Gen 32:24-30), eats with Abraham (Gen 18), shows His back to Moses (Ex 33:23). Genesis 1:26-27 "in our image, after our likeness" is not abstract. Theophanies are not just temporary illusions.
John 4:24 says "God is spirit" but that is not teaching God is an incorporeal being without any form or body. It is about how we must worship Him, in spirit and truth, not in a specific mountain or temple. Resurrected Jesus has flesh and bones (Luke 24:39) and is still fully divine. Scholarship like Sommer and Hamori confirms the Hebrew Bible assumes divine embodiment in key places. It is not explicit incorporeality at all.
Immutability? Malachi 3:6 and Numbers 23:19 are there, but so is God relenting and changing course: Exodus 32:14, Jonah 3:10, Jeremiah 18:7-10, even Genesis 6:6 where He regretted making man. That is a God who genuinely interacts, not an atemporal unmoved mover borrowed from Plato. Eternal and omnipresent? Yes in some senses (Ps 90:2, Ps 139), but He also comes down to see things (Gen 11:5) and localizes His presence (tabernacle, temple). The strict outside time and space, no passions package is later creedal concepts and contradicts plain biblical exegesis. Calling other readings blasphemy while skipping the texts that do not fit your system? That is not engaging Scripture. That is reading systematic theology back into it. The Bible invites better scholarship here. The LDS view takes the relational, embodied God seriously, along with restoration of unclear understanding. What is your take on the divine council (Ps 82, quoted by Jesus in John 10) or God repenting in the text? Let us steelman both sides instead of hand waving blasphemy. Research it honestly. The God who made us in His image and invites us to know Him (John 17:3) He is our Father in a real way, humans are not creatures here the whim of an unknowable entity.
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@manmotion @IllariaDiMar except for the "passions, omorphious" and "cloud," these are all 100% based on very explicit Scripture.
i'm actually flabbergasted that you're able to type those things out in negation and not have a twinge in your conscience concerning blasphemy. how is it possible? idk
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Refusing to steelman the LDS position is a clear admission you're unwilling to engage the actual argument. That just shows you are lazy/dumb. You keep pointing at the Church essay's concession on the linear characters as if that settles everything when that isn't even the core of the argument. That's not logic. That's hand waving because you're afraid a fair steelman might actually hold up under scrutiny. If you're confident go ahead and steelman the LDS position properly instead of knocking down a weak version no serious defender holds. Or just admit you're not interested in looking too closely because you're scared you might be wrong and you're comfortable in your ignorance.
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What’s there to steelman? The translations of the characters have already been accepted by the LDS church not to be literal translations like was initially claimed. So I guess I could ignore the blatantly false claim that Joseph Smith made about that part and try to say he got the other part right.
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How did Joseph Smith know so much about ancient Egyptian temple worship and Ptolemaic coding when nobody else in America would be able to explain it for decades?
Anti-Mormons don’t get it when it comes to the Book of Abraham.
They assume that a few minimalist interpretations from “modern Egyptologists” are the final and only possible meaning of the Book of Breathings facsimiles, while completely overlooking the underlying meaning: a temple-like initiation pattern.
Purification.
Sacrifice.
Creation.
Testing.
Ascent.
Coronation.
Entrance into divine presence.
The Book of Breathings facsimiles tell the story of ancient temple patterns.
If these were just random “funerary documents,” why do they preserve the same sacred pattern Joseph Smith restored through temple worship just a few months after publishing the Book of Abraham?
Dr. Jayson, PhD 🌲@JS_StrngstSldr
Detractors love to say "Egyptologists don't agree with you!" There's a few issues. Egyptologists admit this Ptolemaic Writing escapes even the expertise of Egyptologists. Gaudard (who is also a papyrologist) and Thiers both say that Ptolemaic Writing is so complex and complicated that most Egyptologists are challenged by it or escapes them altogether. Christophe Thiers. Ptolemaic Writing. Guide to the Writings of Ancient Egypt, GIFAO 4, S. Polis (éd.), pp.52- 57, 2023, 9782724708738. ⟨halshs-04323882⟩ Gaudard, F. (2010). Ptolemaic Hieroglyphs. In C. Woods, G. Emberling, & E. Teeter (Eds.), Visible language: Inventions of writing in the ancient Middle East and Beyond (pp. 173–175). The Oriental Institute of the University of Chicago. [1, 2, 3]
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