Muhammad

@TrickleDownMan @reasoned_islam @sebastien_c123 That do not have a literary mention but have archaeological evidence (just like Quraysh as I showed you but you ignored). Anyway, you are not doing well to convince people of your view with your behavior. Was your last reply to me written for the glory of God?

@TrickleDownMan @reasoned_islam @sebastien_c123 It is not a problem because these sources that overblow the status of Quraysh are not in the Quran or hadith. If we read the Quran and hadith, we get the idea that Quraysh was a tribe that had some regional importance but nothing more. And there are many other tribes, cities, etc

Lies. We don't do taqiyyah like Paul does 1 Cor. 9 or Acts 21. Here's a dilemma for ya: Shariq made a massive blunder saying 'Uthman (ra) came 250 years after Muhammad ﷺ. 1) Was IP too stupid to catch this blunder? 2) Or did he NOT correct him to protect his image? (taqqiyah)

@TrickleDownMan @reasoned_islam @sebastien_c123 You were talking about the supposed scope of Quraysh's trade extending to the Romans, Persians, etc. Where did you get that idea from if not from what Muslim historians said? And please, show some respect. I am giving you respect.

@muhammad_karam0 @reasoned_islam @sebastien_c123 Did I say Islamic writings? Do they not teach you to read?

@TrickleDownMan @reasoned_islam @sebastien_c123 Whether the Islamic writings are accurate about the scope of Quraysh has nothing to do with the existence of the tribe itself.

@muhammad_karam0 @reasoned_islam @sebastien_c123 That doesn't work here. LMAO This was not some obscure small tribe.

@TrickleDownMan @reasoned_islam @sebastien_c123 who are traditionally placed before the 7th century.

@TrickleDownMan @reasoned_islam @sebastien_c123 Well, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, is it. But we can still think critically about the context of the discoveries we do have and come to conclusions based on them. There are also other inscriptions of Qurashis that give genealogies that include people

@TrickleDownMan @reasoned_islam @sebastien_c123 In your initial post you seemed to be casting doubt on the existence of Uthman so we wanted to clear that up.

@muhammad_karam0 @reasoned_islam @sebastien_c123 Not what I asked for.

@TrickleDownMan @reasoned_islam @sebastien_c123 Please reread the last sentence of my post. Do you really think an entire tribe with so many clans just came out of nowhere in a few decades?

@muhammad_karam0 @reasoned_islam @sebastien_c123 What does before 7th did your brain not process?

@TrickleDownMan @reasoned_islam @sebastien_c123 islamic-awareness.org/history/islam/… Here is an inscription dating to the 660s belonging to a man who self-identified as a client of the Quraysh subtribe of Adi bin Kaab (the same subtribe Umar belonged to). Not before 7th century, but of course the tribe didn't pop up out of nowhere.

@reasoned_islam @sebastien_c123 Sure it is. Show me historical evidence for the Quarsyh tribe before the 7th.

@reasoned_islam @TrickleDownMan @sebastien_c123 @TrickleDownMan So to clarify the inscription above, this inscription records the ascension of Uthman to the caliphate. It reads as follows: "I, Zuhair, believed in Allah and wrote this during the time of the leadership of Ibn Affan, year 24"

@TrickleDownMan @sebastien_c123 Rashidūn caliphate is extremely well attested. Even in the shīā literature. Outside of that, we also have both archeological and epigraphic evidence for his existence. We don't have a scrap of evidence for the existence of the “12” outside of Gospels or the fake history(acts)

﴿فَمَنْ تَابَ مِنْ بَعْدِ ظُلْمِهِ وَأَصْلَحَ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ يَتُوبُ عَلَيْهِ﴾

﴿رَبِّ إِنِّي ظَلَمْتُ نَفْسِي فَاغْفِرْ لِي﴾

@Jondeli75 @IjazTheTrini @enesovat22 I appreciate that we can have a respectful conversation about this without insulting each other as is common here

@muhammad_karam0 @IjazTheTrini @enesovat22 I appreciate you asking for my opinion. This is the preeminent verse showing that God chose Abraham to bless all of mankind through his offspring because of his righteousness. There was something special about him and his faith in God.

Christ Jesus gave up everything for me, therefore I will give up everything I have for him.

@Jondeli75 @IjazTheTrini @enesovat22 The verse does say though that the person will live because of his righteousness. Would you interpret this "living" as something other than salvation?

@muhammad_karam0 @IjazTheTrini @enesovat22 Maybe it’s splitting hairs but in terms of. Christian theology, righteousness does not equate appeasement of God. Righteousness in this case is a supreme act of faith that only a few in the Ild Testament could obtain. Righteousness would not reach the level of being saved.

@Jondeli75 @IjazTheTrini @enesovat22 Just as Genesis 15:6 accounts faith to Abraham as righteousness, so does Ezekiel 18:22 account repentance (which is not just faith but turning away from sins and doing good) as righteousness.

@Jondeli75 @IjazTheTrini @enesovat22 In the verse right before, it talks about a wicked person repenting, then verse 22 says that the person will live as a result of their own righteousness which they achieved by simply repenting.

@Jondeli75 @IjazTheTrini @enesovat22 What do you make of Genesis 26:5?

It’s crazy but it’s almost as if you’re seeing the concept of grace I’ll explain later in Ezekiel 22. If you look at the context of the whole chapter, verse 22 is actually teaching that everyone has the guilt of their own sins. The son does not share in the guilt of his father in Ezekiel 22. No one pays for another persons sins. I can show you where you are right about a concept beyond sacrifices and another way to being forgiven that you are actually right about. And all from the Jewish Old Testament. And it all points to Jesus. Look at Genesis 15:6. It may gall a little since you’re Muslim and it’s the promise to Abraham and his descendants. Genesis 15:6 6 Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness. God makes promises to Abraham that are just so vast and almost miraculous and Abraham believed Him without any doubt. This verse points to the concept of grace we Christians believe in. Grace is defined as unmerited, unearned favor. Jesus’s sacrifice earned us grace and we are forever found guiltless by God and can be saved as a result. As imperfect beings, this is the only way to God. Grace through faith in Jesus. Not by trying to appease him by prayers a certain way or abstaining from specific things. In the end, us humans will always fail and that’s why Jesus took our place on the cross.

@Jondeli75 @IjazTheTrini @enesovat22 that we are saved. And during the Babylonian exile, where the people were still under the old covenant, there were no sacrifices yet this did not mean forgiveness had ceased.

@Jondeli75 @IjazTheTrini @enesovat22 In the Old Testament, it does not seem to me that sacrifices were the only way a person could be forgiven. In Ezekiel 18, God talks about wanting sincere repentance from people, which leads to their forgiveness. In verse 22, God explicitly says it's through our own righteousness