Jeremiah

@TruthSynod @NoelJudd And there is so much already entrenched!

@macrofern @NoelJudd "Not quite crystallized" Same here. It is pretty far out there so there is really no discussion on it to learn from.

Is Salvation a Process? Part 1 | Hebrews Bible Study (19 Proofs Explaine... youtu.be/bS8f2ibaGSY?si… via @YouTube Jack argues that the book of Hebrews reveals salvation as a first century process reaching completion, not an unfinished future hope. The repeated “time statements” show that the Old Covenant was actively passing away while the New Covenant was being fully established within that generation. Jesus, as High Priest, entered the Most Holy Place and then returned to complete and deliver salvation to those who were waiting. This reframes eschatology entirely: the “last days” were not about our future, but about the fulfillment of redemption in their time, resulting in the finished, eternal covenant we live in now.

Of course, it’s right there in Acts 15, right? Acts 15:28-29 [28] For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us ***to lay on you no greater burden*** than these requirements: [29] that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”

The tithe is mandatory. The tithe preceded the Mosaic law. Abraham paid a tithe to Melchizedek. (Gen 14:20) There's nothing in the New Testament to indicate that this law has been annulled. Only the recipients have changed from the local Levites to local churches. The Christian Church is the heir of the Melchizedekan priesthood through Christ. "In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.” And he says in another place, “You are a priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.” - Heb 5:5-6 "...where our forerunner, Jesus, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek. This Melchizedek was king of Salem and priest of God Most High. He met Abraham returning from the defeat of the kings and blessed him, and Abraham gave him a tenth of everything." Heb 6:20-7:2 Christians owe 10% of their net increase to Christ payable at their local congregation of good standing. This ALSO means that civil government may not tax more than the tithe, or be in rebellion against God. 1 Samuel 8:15 and 17. Pharaoh collected 20%. The US collects more than half today. By Biblical standards, the maximum a Christian can be taxed is 20%, 10 to the church and up to 10 to the state. Can you imagine keeping 80% of your money every year?

@TruthSynod @NoelJudd Not quite crystallized them enough yet. But Romans 14:23 really strikes me, “…for whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.”

@macrofern @NoelJudd I would love to hear your thoughts! Please share if you are ok with doing so.

@TruthSynod @NoelJudd Something I’ve been working through as of late. Very interesting!

@NoelJudd Do you view sin as Old Covenant specific? As in, technically speaking, "sin" was only possible under the Old Covenant? "The wages of sin is death", and death and life are covenant terms. Curious to hear any thoughts on this.

@TruthSynod Did you just listen to Zach interview Tim? 🙂 youtu.be/osHLrLKiAqg?si…

Often man/mankind in the NT is referring to the Old Covenant people of God, Israel. The sabbath was a sign for God's covenant people, for "man".

@aigkenham No it’s not.

The age of the earth is a biblical authority issue.

@Fulfilled70 It’s all about maturity. At peak maturity would we even think about it as self-sacrifice? Even Paul made it transactional when necessary— he said that our bodies belong to one another and not to deprive each-other, for example.

It's sad to see Christians with a transactional view of marriage. That's not the way Jesus describes it. Self sacrifice is His way, not what can I get out of this.

@PsylohTheGrey @Be_Like_JChrist Project much? You called the original poster a liar and deceiver. Now I’m the arrogant one? 🙄

@macrofern @Be_Like_JChrist I'll leave you in your arrogance.

Those that follow the 10 Commandments don’t trust God. They have already decided that they can’t trust God to fix their sin problem. That this responsibility they must bear. But God is so much bigger than that. Jesus offers deliverance. We must see him for freedom. The life of the Spirit is so much easier than the life of willpower and flesh battles.

@PsylohTheGrey @Be_Like_JChrist Ah, so you’re a victim now. Good for you.

@macrofern @Be_Like_JChrist It's a non-issue because it was already corrected. You're pretending like it's still an issue because you have a problem with what I said. I shouldn't have to explain a lack of time to respond which resulted a spelling error.

@PsylohTheGrey @Be_Like_JChrist It’s a non-issue to conflate Torah and Holy Spirit?

@macrofern @Be_Like_JChrist This word was already corrected both by you and the other guy. Additionally I already posted the verse with the correct word. You're pressing a non-issue.

@PsylohTheGrey @Be_Like_JChrist So are the Law and Spirit the same thing?

@macrofern @Be_Like_JChrist In fact, from the beginning, the Promise God made to Israel regarding the New Covenant was mentioned in the Old Testament, and that Covenant is that He would write His Law in our hearts. This doesn't dissolve it. He empowers us to keep it through His Spirit.

The earthly things pointed to heavenly things. Jesus is the man from heaven who fulfilled all the OT and all it pointed to, including the ark. Now, address the text I gave you. 2 Cor 3 is explicit in categorizing the Law and the Spirit as two different things. One is the ministry of death, the other, life.

@macrofern @Be_Like_JChrist You are mistaken about the Commandments, and your understanding of what Paul means. Rev. 11:19 And the temple sanctuary of God in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen in his temple sanctuary. The Commandments never go away.

@PryceSion @IndianaBrunner Is that all Paul was talking about? Table manners? That’s your repeated strawman, not my argument. You keep begging the question and dodging the actual text I’ve laid out the entire thread. Bad faith interlocutor. We’re done here. Peace.

@macrofern @IndianaBrunner Your view explains behavior, not why eating/drinking makes you guilty of Christ’s body and blood. And “no one’s getting sick today” isn’t an argument. Paul says God judged them then, not that He must always do so visibly. You’ve shrunk a sacramental warning into table manners.

Believing the Eucharist is symbolic is not heresy. Believing Jesus Christ’s life, death, and resurrection is symbolic IS heresy.

Paul isn’t the one adding. The context of the passage is clear that eating unworthily is mistreating his faithful, not whether or not you get “true presence”, which is nowhere in the entire book, correct. In fact, Paul makes the corrective exceedingly clear in 1 Corinthians 11:33-34, “So then, my brothers, when you come together to eat, wait for one another—if anyone is hungry, let him eat at home—so that when you come together it will not be for judgment.” Again, nowhere does he say “when you come together, believe in real presence, so that it won’t be for judgement”.

@macrofern @IndianaBrunner Acts 9 = harming the Church = harming Christ. Agreed. But here Paul adds something you can’t absorb: eating unworthily brings judgment (vv28–30). Your view explains the sin. It still can’t explain why the elements carry that level of guilt.

Bro, he couldn’t have been more clear. He used the very covenantal language Jesus used — which was perfectly fitting since he was addressing their abuses while celebrating the Lord’s table. Literally right there in v25: “This cup is the new covenant in my blood.” Then he doesn’t say the cure for violating the covenant is to recognize “true presence.” He says the cure is being considerate: “wait for one another” (vv33-34). Moreover, he literally distinguishes body and bread: “The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Because there is one bread, we who are many are one body, for we all partake of the one bread” (1 Cor 10:16-17). Further, he crowns the entire letter in ch. 13: “If I have not love, I have nothing” (vv1-3). He ties it to our very faith and hope: “So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love” (v13).

@macrofern @IndianaBrunner You’re stretching a true point past what Paul actually says. He doesn’t say “guilty of the covenant” or “guilty of the Church.” He says “guilty of the body and blood of the Lord” while eating and drinking (1 Cor 11:27).

Is that all that mistreating poor believers is? “Bad etiquette?” Is that what Paul describes in that passage? Are you really going to die on that hill? Is that how Saul replied to Jesus on the road to Damascus? “Saul, why are you persecuting me?” “Dude, are you really upset over some bad etiquette?”

@macrofern @IndianaBrunner Your reading explains the ethics. It does not explain why Paul uses sacrificial language tied to what’s received. So answer it plainly: How does “bad etiquette” make you guilty of Christ’s blood?

Brother, you straw man my position and try to reduce it to mere ethics and you beg the question of real presence in the text of 1 Corinthians — and I’m the one deflecting? I know your position very well. I once held to your understanding. You can make a case for real presence, but it’s not here. If anything, using 1 Corinthians actually weakens your argument as we can all see the eating and drinking unworthily by your definition doesn’t actually make anyone more sick or dead than anyone else.

@macrofern @IndianaBrunner You’re deflecting. I never denied the ethics. I said your reading only explains the ethics and leaves the rest hanging. So answer the one point you keep avoiding: Why does Paul say you’re “guilty of the body and blood of the Lord” (1 Cor 11:27)?

I did explain it. But here it is again: “This cup is the new covenant in my blood” (v25). His people — His soma (the church, as Paul calls it throughout 1 Corinthians), His bride — were purchased with that blood. When you humiliate and exclude blood-bought believers at the meal that proclaims that blood, you are trampling the new covenant itself. That is how you become “guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.” Jesus says the exact same thing: persecuting His church = persecuting Him (Acts 9:4; Matt 25:40). You’re the one separating what Paul joins together.

@macrofern @IndianaBrunner You’re dodging the only question that matters. Call it “ethics,” call it “covenant,” call it whatever you want. Explain this: How does humiliating people make you “guilty of the body and blood of the Lord” (1 Cor 11:27)? Not just “body.” Blood.

@eagle_greg @TheLittleSeason TLDR, but I liked the parts I read. 🤪👍😉

That is one of the flavors of the game of organized religion to prolong the return of Jesus Christ beyond the time it actually came and went. The results are many Christians seek an escape as opposed to taking a stand against the evil nature of man for the devil and his demons have been dealt with permanently. Yet Christians blame him for the evil that consumes the world when the truth is they have been practicing escapism and have let the world get in the shape it’s in because of it. From one conspiracy to another they float trying to keep the narrative alive that slowly perishes before their eyes as people begin to see the light of Truth. Then some of us realize that there is no escape but death itself that comes when God has allotted it to and we need to stop the evil of men from continuing to grow unbridled so we begin to speak out and are labeled as heretics by supposed fellow believers for speaking Truth. So be it, if the Truth hurts it still needs to be spoken and they still need to see, read and hear it, so maybe their eyes will be opened to Truth for if we do not can we truly say we love our brothers and sisters if we let them continue in this blindness. This is Truth the return of Jesus Christ has come and gone we do not live in nor will we ever live in the end of the age/days. For the end of days/age was that of the old covenant world which begin dying just after Jesus Christ died on the cross and culminated at the destruction of the last remaining symbol of the old covenant was coming to an end. As the old covenant world died screaming and thrashing the new covenant world was given birth to. There will never be peace of this earth as long as Christians continue to remain blind to the Truth and continue to be lead by those who seek to revive the old covenant world. My fellow believers we need to wake up to Truth and let our voices be heard and by doing so we can help to restore peace to this world. To many believers in Jesus Christ say God is not slack in His Promises and yet they believe He has delayed that which He told to those in the first century they would see come true by centuries. How can one say God is not slack in His Promises and yet believe this nonsense? Read and understand this the Bible was not written to any generation beyond the one to whom it was given but God has seen fit to preserve much of the Bible throughout history as a guide for you to learn from and a way to understand Who He is in even greater detail. The prophecies contained within do not have any bearing on your existence except to show you the history of what has happened and what you can expect upon your death of your flesh. Those who seek to revive the old covenant world will tell you otherwise for they seek to gain power they don’t realize never belonged to them in the first place for God has always been in control. God abolished the old covenant world and I doubt He will allow it to be revived ever again.

They prepared to die for their faith. They were tortured and they did. We’re preparing to disappear before it costs us anything. That’s NOT the same gospel. Your rapture doctrine and your false dispensationalism reeks of festering rot. The saints endured. Maybe we should stop banking on escape and start preparing to stand. Revelation 20:7-9 That’s where we’re at.

You’re conflating “spiritual” (an adjective) with “Spirit” (the Holy Spirit Himself). You wrote “The Law IS Spirit.” That’s not the same as Paul’s statement that “the Law is spiritual” (Rom 7:14). 2 Corinthians 3 makes the distinction sharp: the ministry of death (the letter carved in stone) vs. the ministry of the Spirit (which is life). They are not the same.

@macrofern @Be_Like_JChrist Rom. 7: 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am fleshly, sold under sin. 23 but I see in my body another law warring against the law of my mind and leading me captive to sin’s law that is in my body.