ɱųʑŋąɧ (abel’s wife) 🇿🇦🇸🇿

29K posts

ɱųʑŋąɧ (abel’s wife) 🇿🇦🇸🇿

@_muznah

เข้าร่วม Temmuz 2016

713 กำลังติดตาม583 ผู้ติดตาม

ɱųʑŋąɧ (abel’s wife) 🇿🇦🇸🇿 รีทวีตแล้ว

Cured Catfish Claudia@Nomaswazi_11·12h

My issue is, if we were to translate the conversation she’s having, then we’d be discussing the validity of Tsotsi Taal in relation to isiZulu only and THAT is code-switching. What we do is beyond that, and the American lens will never capture that because it doesn’t go that far

.@naledimashishi

This is a long standing linguistic debate tbf. Often times the difference between a language and a dialect has more to do with politics than anything else. It’s why Balkan languages are all considered different languages even though they’re mostly mutually intelligible

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ɱųʑŋąɧ (abel’s wife) 🇿🇦🇸🇿@_muznah·10m

@__LetsRiot @IsItXolani @Sibulelwa269195 Yes exactly. I don’t believe Afrikaans is a conlang or has inorganic roots, I was actually agreeing with the person about why one was elevated and the other wasn’t despite having similar origins lol but maybe I didn’t express that as clearly as I could have so thank you!

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_eclipse_🏴🇵🇸🇸🇩🇪🇭🇨🇩@__LetsRiot·12m

@IsItXolani @_muznah @Sibulelwa269195 a so called unified "volk", elevate the status of Dutch descendants, and eventually provide a cultural and ideological framework to justify apartheid.

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ɱųʑŋąɧ (abel’s wife) 🇿🇦🇸🇿@_muznah·3h

Naaahh, you could argue that what is white supremacist is saying that when black people have a dialect that has slight grammar quirks (like a large amount English dialects do), that those dialects needs to be sectioned off and considered a distinct language to keep English “pure”

PremSoonCome@IsItXolani

South Africans are engaging in white supremist rhetoric unknowingly. AAVE is a language just as Xhosa and Zulu are language. If you want to argue it’s a dialect, that same argument can be used for both Xhosa and Zulu.

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ɱųʑŋąɧ (abel’s wife) 🇿🇦🇸🇿@_muznah·21m

@palesaaaaaaaaaa I think scouse is another good example. Most people wouldn’t understand a word of it but it’s still considered English lol

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ɱųʑŋąɧ (abel’s wife) 🇿🇦🇸🇿@_muznah·22m

@palesaaaaaaaaaa exactly! but one is universally thought of as a subtype of English and the other is being cast aside as not actually being English, I think in no small part due to the different demographics of the speakers

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ɱųʑŋąɧ (abel’s wife) 🇿🇦🇸🇿@_muznah·24m

@Sibulelwa269195 @IsItXolani that is not the point or even the discussion that we are having or the context in which we’re discussing AAVE right now . It’s the discussion you want us to be having because it’s an easier position to defend.

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Sibulelwa@Sibulelwa269195·27m

@_muznah @IsItXolani The same system that elevated one deliberately suppressed the other. That’s the point.

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ɱųʑŋąɧ (abel’s wife) 🇿🇦🇸🇿@_muznah·26m

@Sibulelwa269195 @IsItXolani saying are inherently colonial and white supremacist because to argue that AAVE should be considered separate.

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ɱųʑŋąɧ (abel’s wife) 🇿🇦🇸🇿@_muznah·27m

@Sibulelwa269195 @IsItXolani I have agreed that linguistic categorisations have been applied unevenly, but the problem is that neither of you have outlined your own criteria besides political consideration. In a conversation that started with a professor who USED those very same criteria you’re both

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ɱųʑŋąɧ (abel’s wife) 🇿🇦🇸🇿@_muznah·31m

@Sibulelwa269195 @IsItXolani Yes. And then it taken stolen and used to consolidate a national identity around Dutch descendants to strengthen nationalism and form a justification for apartheid.

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Sibulelwa@Sibulelwa269195·1h

@_muznah @IsItXolani Afrikaans formed organically through contact and mixing, just like Tsotsitaal, and then got elevated through political will

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ɱųʑŋąɧ (abel’s wife) 🇿🇦🇸🇿@_muznah·35m

@IsItXolani @Sibulelwa269195 I’ve outlined them ad nauseum. If you don’t believe languages even truly exist then this whole debate is meaningless to you anyway since AAVE couldn’t possibly be its own language if language categorisation itself is inherently colonial lol

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PremSoonCome@IsItXolani·41m

@_muznah @Sibulelwa269195 And what would those legitimate reasons be outside of colonial linguistic structures

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ɱųʑŋąɧ (abel’s wife) 🇿🇦🇸🇿@_muznah·38m

@IsItXolani @Sibulelwa269195 Unless you’re going to argue that it’s actually possible for an argument rooted in white supremacy to be structurally sound, it must follow that an argument built on incorrect white supremacist premises are inherently illegitimate

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PremSoonCome@IsItXolani·48m

@_muznah @Sibulelwa269195 What? How is that the implication?

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ɱųʑŋąɧ (abel’s wife) 🇿🇦🇸🇿@_muznah·42m

@IsItXolani @Sibulelwa269195 You haven’t even entertain the idea that someone may think that it is a dialect for legitimate reasons or make an argument not rooted in white supremacy for why it’s not separate.

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ɱųʑŋąɧ (abel’s wife) 🇿🇦🇸🇿@_muznah·43m

@IsItXolani @Sibulelwa269195 Because some people want it to be recognised and linguistic categories have been utilised to white supremacist ends we must agree that AAVE is completely distinct. That is your argument.

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ɱųʑŋąɧ (abel’s wife) 🇿🇦🇸🇿@_muznah·48m

@IsItXolani yes exactly, when you say that an opinion on a topic that is an ongoing unsettled debate in the linguistics world is *white supremacist*, what you are saying is that there are no other *plausible, reasonable* explanations for why someone could hold that view.

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PremSoonCome@IsItXolani·59m

@_muznah No I said that the rhetoric of calling AAVE a dialect is white supremist because it denies AAVE being a language. Where did I say that?

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ɱųʑŋąɧ (abel’s wife) 🇿🇦🇸🇿@_muznah·51m

@Sibulelwa269195 @IsItXolani it *could* be. or it could not be. It could just as easily be about other things like maybe some linguists just don’t think there’s enough divergence from standard vocabulary, phonetics, and grammatical structure to justify a separate classification.

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Sibulelwa@Sibulelwa269195·1h

@_muznah @IsItXolani "Some say yes some say no" is itself politics.

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ɱųʑŋąɧ (abel’s wife) 🇿🇦🇸🇿@_muznah·54m

@IsItXolani @Sibulelwa269195 the implication is that it is *wrong* to hold the other position (because white supremacy is always wrong) and that there is a consensus among pro-black linguists and scholars that does not exist.

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ɱųʑŋąɧ (abel’s wife) 🇿🇦🇸🇿@_muznah·54m

@IsItXolani @Sibulelwa269195 No, but when you make statements like “thinking AAVE is a dialect is South Africans engaging in white supremacy” and then your evidence to support that is “work is being done to recognise AAVE as a language”,

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ɱųʑŋąɧ (abel’s wife) 🇿🇦🇸🇿@_muznah·57m

@Sibulelwa269195 I’d argue no (I think we agree there), but that the lack of neutrality cuts both ways and isn’t as black and white as “thinking X is a dialect is white suprmeacist”.

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Sibulelwa@Sibulelwa269195·2h

@_muznah Even if “dialect” isn’t inherently inferior, are the categories themselves historically neutral?

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ɱųʑŋąɧ (abel’s wife) 🇿🇦🇸🇿@_muznah·1h

@IsItXolani you never defended AAVE as a language. What you did was say that you don’t believe the category of a distinct language is real bc of white supremacy, and so the question itself is meaningless and politics is more important. you dissolved the question instead of resolving it

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PremSoonCome@IsItXolani·1h

@_muznah I’m not defending prof. I’m defending aave as a language itself and now I’m showing you why it’s important for it to be considered a language.

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ɱųʑŋąɧ (abel’s wife) 🇿🇦🇸🇿@_muznah·1h

@Sibulelwa269195 @IsItXolani and whether an African American speaking AAVE and a standardised version of English is comparable to speaking unintelligible clearly distinct languages. some say yes some say no, but to act like every linguist in the world agrees with one side is not true

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ɱųʑŋąɧ (abel’s wife) 🇿🇦🇸🇿@_muznah·1h

@Sibulelwa269195 @IsItXolani I didn’t say it did. I’m well aware that Afrikaans was a political project that was embarked on to consolidate a national identity in Dutch descendants to feed into nationalism and the justification for apartheid. That’s still not really related to the current convo though

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