tsaphah

@Ka1s3rE Nobody is going to wake up. Clenched by the closeness of Heaven, then the fruits of earth are like rotten fruit!

@26331to9 The GOP needs to get pummeled in the midterms and potentially 2028 to get a wake up call

I wholeheartedly regret ever voting for MAGA or Trump.

The way the REC handles that may not break the scriptures -- there is no wearing the clerical collar (what men wore until 1970, therefore breaking Deut. 22:5), nor is it in the office of deacon, whereby she would be teaching & having authority over men. It would be even better if it involved her covering her head in the assembly, like Phoebe did. That liturgy covers over many issues of overreach.

Our church is getting a deaconess apparently..

Even so, the normative principle does not go beyond what is explicit in the scriptures, & the ones I provided do not leave room for doubt concerning going public. In light of that, it looks like a witch hunt to the eyes of many. Again, not my wheelhouse, but if we can't stand on scripture when we act then it's time for a pause & prayer. Honestly, I think all this is not the problem but more a symptom of the problem.

Well I wouldn’t expect you to know the details of every case and charge. The point of the process is to fairly determine if they persist or not. Surely a secret process is not what is envisioned here. I can’t give you only Bible verses because I don’t ascribe to the regulative principle but the normative principle.

The ACNA should release the full transcript of the Ruch trial, and speak to what happened between prosecutors, and remove any NDAs if they exist, and not keep canonical charges secret, and make all future proceedings public. The church is called to have at least the same level of transparency as a secular court.

@lancelormand Following the scripture is what inspires confidence. And I am not aware of any Biblical instructions that call for us to go public like a Judge Judy Court show. But I am open to corrections.

Serious question: why isn’t every bishop in the ACNA saying this right now? What else is there to consider morally and ethically here? Does this pervasive silence inspire confidence?

No. In fact, there is a Biblical basis to have a court-like response to elders in sin. However, there is no call for it to be "before the church" unless the sinner "persists in sin". I see no indication that is the case. But honestly, this is not my wheelhouse. That's why I'm asking for Bible verses, & ONLY that.

@26331to9 Well my point is our “secular” system isn’t actually secular but is founded upon the Bible. The Bible was the guiding document of our nation and founding fathers. By the standard you present we shouldn’t have canonical trials at all because they are “not in the Bible.”

Forgive me if this sounds harsh, but I don't care about secular standards. Going by secular standards we would have a gay archbishop, or something. That's a fair comment about Matthew 18. But 1 Timothy 5 is specific to elders. And since he was acquitted there is no basis to suggest that he "persists in sin" (verse 20). I need Bible verses to line up with your call, & man made constructs don't help.

You are! They do refuse to repent which is why we are at this stage. They persist in sin, or that needs to be determined. Furthermore, this is not an interpersonal quarrel which is the context of Matthew 18 but a canonical church process. Our secular system goes back to English Common Law which is built on the Bible and Christian principals that go all the way back to the Torah. That is a longer conversation. By holding less than secular standards the church is in fact positioning itself as less than the world.

@SwannHnesce @lancelormand This needs to be posted again and again, until every bishop, priest, & deacon has seen it.

@26331to9 @lancelormand Rosaria Butterfield: WO is the gateway to gay theology.

“I have come to believe that the problems now visible in the ACNA are not primarily problems you can fix by rewriting the rulebook. They are problems of character, culture, and accountability — and those are not things a court structure or a revised Title IV can cure. The cure, if there is one, is repentance and the slow rebuilding of trust.” Haven’t we heard this before?

@DOMA_Misconduct Will the College of Bishops recognize how odd it is that the clergy vote progressive but the laity doesn't? Does this disparity exist in other dioceses? It certainly does in ADOTS.

Several commentators have suggested that the college of bishops may devise a 'creative solution' by selecting neither candidate. Perhaps. And if they do, the answer to Fr Sharpe's question will be a resounding: "𝐍𝐎."

True. Maybe the Holy Spirit has to empower such things. My wife covers her head in the assembly. For years I talked about it, but never did I tell her to follow the liturgy of 1 Cor. 11. Maybe men should, but how could I, given that it's such a rare thing & we men are such cowards. But one day she said she was going to cover, & I thought she was joking. But she did, & has done it for years now, & our worship together is... I do not have the words & would have to ask the angels to explain.

The question I really want to ask all these online ultra-rigid “The Bible says submit!” types is, “Do you have a girlfriend? Wife? Yeah, didn’t think so.”My wife is at least as conservative and anti-WO as I am, but this spirit that submission is something for me to demand and tell her and not for her to realize as my partner is a one way ticket to the dog house- and I don’t have a dog.

Sometimes I have a passing thought to go to Rome. But, too much about Mary. I think the EO have a more balanced position on that. But Protestantism has largely done away with Mary, and I wonder if that is why there is this persistent & overwhelming move toward WO. Mary might keep this in check, for she is "woman" and she is "mother", never priest or deacon.

Time to reassess things...

Thanks for sharing that with me. I appreciate it. I understand it better now, but still see room for regret. But I will admit that I am biased, in favor of him, due to how he was treated at Mere Anglicanism and that terrible letter from Abp. Wood. The injustice of that tends to make me not trust any of his accusations, & attribute the pattern of such things as being what happens to that rare someone who is brave enough to speak truth to power.

@26331to9 @ShaughnCasey @TheMuppetPastor Here you go static1.1.sqspcdn.com/static/f/14791…

You can hate…or you can buy stock in Grindr November 11th…

Most people don't understand that it's ultimately about the integrity of the Bible, NOT just WO. There are no less than 12 passages about male headship in church & home. But we throw those away so we can have a ladyboss. like in a Marvel movie. The Bible begins to unravel & we end up w/ LGBT, & furries -- abomination upon abomination. No thanks ACNA, TEC, CofE, etc.

I can no longer tolerate those who aren't disgusted & 100% intolerant of women's "ordination". The priestesses' perceived intentions do not matter. You are either WO's enemy or you are it's accomplice. This includes supposed trad bishops who shield heresy from unkind truths.

ADOTS is one of them as well. Only female deacons they say. But the archdeacon of the diocese is a woman, & so was the one before, & they are over all the deacons, male & female. Plus, we have parishes where they say the female clergy are only deacons but she preaches, presides over services & has authority over men, like a priest. They lie & no one openly calls it out.

@American_Johnny I get frustrated when dioceses that ordain women to the diaconate are considered “conservative.” No, you deny the Catholic faith even if you just ordain women to the diaconate. Living Word, Quincy, San Joaquin, etc are not conservative dioceses.

No. The clericalism is evident because the vote shows that the majority of the clergy favor progressivism, whereas the laity vote is more traditional. It exposes that the progressiveness comes from the clergy. I have seen it with my own eyes. And this is what drives ACNA toward heterodoxy. It's clergy. And traditional clergy get marginalized, & will even admit this on X.

Watch the video. The laity had a chance to keep voting, and they chose not to do that. That is not clericalism. It might be lack of courage or apathy from the laity but it was not clericalism. It might have been a stunt to put the CofB in a corner over WO. There is zero evidence this was clericalism. Absolutely zero. The laity are not victims of the clerics. They appear to be their own worse enemy….

JUST IN—Final vote tallies from @DioceseWGC's election. L:29-14 S | C:24-15 M L:27-15 S | C:22-17 M L:29-14 S | C:23-16 M L:28-15 S | C:24-15 M L:29-14 S | C: 24-15 M L:28-15 S | C: 23-16 M Both houses voted to adjourn & send both names to the college (L:23-20 Y | C: 21-17 Y).

@ShaughnCasey @TheMuppetPastor Why the boot, and why no regrets? I understand why the ACNA rejected him, but I've never understood your situation.

@TheMuppetPastor My jurisdiction booted Calvin Robinson last year after a very short tenure. Zero regrets.

@ALucieSmith If they are not against WO then they should drop the word "Catholic" from their name. But that's what progressives do -- change the meaning of words, & we let them because we are lazy cowards.

Are there any Anglo-Catholics out there who absolutely reject female ordination? My feeling is that most have made their peace with it.

@DOMA_Misconduct @DioceseWGC An unpopular answer: join the Communion of the Saints & the historic church & count all of Paul's words as scripture, & those who don't are accursed. All of it. Male clergy. Head covering. Holy kiss. Jesus agrees. Libs hate Gal. 1:8-9. They make scripture twist & turn & crawl.

@26331to9 @DioceseWGC Fair question. What I'm wondering is, how should we determine which portions of the epistles are just "what Paul says" and not what God says? Doesn't this open the door to undermining huge important parts of Scripture? Isn't this playing with fire?

Does Fr Russell Martin believe all Scripture to be the inspired Word of God? On 1 Timothy—"That's what Paul says … I haven't seen where it says God does not permit that." Martin is the rumored favorite for bishop of @DioceseWGC among Bp Lowenfield & the rest of the college.