@BenBird53920553 I know you are smarter than this. This is what's called a strawman my friend. I guess it's fun. I do it occasionally as well, but it doesn't really change hearts and minds.
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Ben McKay
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@ServusDeiVivi Dude, he should have read the book. It's not that hard. I'm very surprised he hasn't because Ethan's a smart guy and well-read. Instead, he read "Unveiling Mormonism", which by the title you can tell has a "little bit" of bias baked in. Have you read the BOM cover to cover?
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Luke is trying everything possible to discredit Ethan. These are the "nice guys", remember?
You don't need to read the entire Bible to know what it, or Arius, says. You don't need to be an expert or academic to understand who Jesus is, and why Arius is wrong. Complete nonsense.
Luke Hanson@LukeFHan
Christians, would you take someone seriously who said they had read 30% of the Bible and were sure it taught Arianism. (Yes this is referring to the debate)
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@LowerLeavell @Bongo83948 I get it. From your perspective it'd be like trying to read the Quran with an open mind. It would be incredibly difficult to get into that head space because there's not a chance in your mind you would ever convert. I can't blame you. I can just tell you what I've experienced.
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@LowerLeavell @Bongo83948 It's like someone who doesn't believe in the Gospel of John: "What am I missing if I don't believe the Gospel of John?" I believe you have great faith in Christ and want to follow him. Don't get me wrong. But there is incredible insight, testimony and wisdom contained in the BOM
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These LDS apologists are so confusing. They base so much of their outreach on their own personal experience and ask you to have your own experience with their texts. But when your experience of the Book of Mormon is negative, they try to accuse you of lying, conjuring up old talking points, or place the blame on you for not experiencing it correctly.
Ironically, it's very similar to faith healers who blame you for not having enough faith.
LEGO Joseph Smith@Mormonger
You obviously copied this from Reddit 😂 "Jesus being born in Jerusalem"? The Book of Mormon says He would be born in the land of Jerusalem. Bethlehem was in that region. Not the devastating contradiction you think it is 😂 "Alpha and Omega"? You're attacking a translation choice. If Joseph Smith translated ancient concepts into familiar biblical English, then of course biblical titles appear in the text. That's how translation works.😂 "And it came to pass"? Seriously? Repetitive phrasing is your evidence against authenticity? The Bible is filled with repetitive literary formulas. If repetition proves a book false, you're going to have problems with scripture generally. As for horses, archaeology, and DNA... Notice how quickly your argument jumps from "there are unresolved questions" to "therefore the entire book is a fraud." Ridiculous 😂 The biggest problem with your post is that you judge the Book of Mormon by standards you don't apply consistently elsewhere. The Bible contains textual difficulties, archaeological debates, translation issues, apparent contradictions, and historical questions. Yet Christians routinely argue that such issues don't automatically invalidate divine revelation. Suddenly, when the Book of Mormon is involved, every unresolved question becomes proof of fraud. And your final point is simply mistaken. You say another testament proves Mormonism isn't Christianity. By that logic, the New Testament proved Christianity wasn't Judaism. Early Christians accepted additional scripture because they believed God had spoken again. Latter-day Saints don't claim to be another Protestant denomination. They claim a restoration of Christianity through new revelation. You can reject that claim if you want, but pretending that "additional scripture exists" is somehow a refutation just begs the question. The reality is that nobody becomes LDS by reading only the Bible because LDS theology explicitly teaches that God continued to reveal scripture after the Bible. What your post ultimately demonstrates is not that the Book of Mormon has been disproven, but that you've already decided it cannot be true and are reading everything through that conclusion. Lazy 🐂💩 😂
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@LowerLeavell This is unfortunate because you're actually missing out on something incredibly beautiful because corrupt pastors have poised you against us. I understand it would be difficult to approach it with an open mind, but I hope some day you will.
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@LowerLeavell Again, anyone could do the same with the Bible (underline "Giants" - "Error! There's no archeological evidence of giants!"). I'm glad you read some of it, but you clearly were searching for "errors" instead of approaching it with an open mind.
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@RevIsaacWirtz @DanShaha I understand this sentiment, but I am always careful to assign charitable motives to my critique of someone - especially if done rudely and hastily. So many other inclinations play into the picture - I simply cannot flatter myself that my motivations are pure.
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Take a moment to consider your question. If Christians truly believed that a group was in danger of hellfire, and that the members of that group were instead confident in their salvation, what should the Christian response be?
To make them comfortable in their journey to eternal death? Or to rail against that which is destroying so many people we love and care for?
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As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I've had my faith relentlessly attacked, undermined, and slandered my entire life. I've seen all the common arguments and points, outright lies, ridiculous theories, and propaganda.
It's been both frustrating and enlightening. I've been forced to study and understand my religion. I've had to draw closer to Jesus Christ as I've sought out truth. I try to follow the counsel given in Doctrine and Covenants 88:118:
And as all have not faith, seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom; seek learning, even by study and also by faith.
Which brings me to my questions; those who intentionally are critical and seek to undercut the faith of members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Why? What drives you? Why would you intentionally destroy someone's sincere faith?
I'm not looking for generic answers like "It's a false religion" or "Because you follow a different Jesus". Those are cop-out cookie-cutter answers that don't stand up to any serious scrutiny. I'm trying to figure out why the broader mainstream Christian world feels like it's okay to collectively dunk on a religion.
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@andrewluke420 @Truth_matters20 Most (if not all) objective historians disagree with that characterization.
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Joseph Smith was one of the most overt false prophets the world has ever known.
Latter-day Truth@Latterdaytruth
Joseph Smith was called of God.
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@Truth_matters20 Nope. He was a true prophet. But as you know, a prophet is never welcome in his own country.
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@LizzieMarbach Do a quick search for "garment" in the bible. There may be something valuable you learn. Do you wear a cross? Symbols help remind us of Jesus my friend!
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Imagine rejecting the one true and living triune God for a false polytheistic religion that forces you to wear magic longjohns 24/7 under your clothes for the rest of your life.
GIF
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@EvidenceOfFaith Do a quick search for "garment" in the Bible. Read through Leviticus and ponder about sacred clothing. Read Genesis and think about the "coats" made for Adam and Eve. That's a good start.
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OMG! I thought the "magic underwear" was just something taken out of context that people used to make fun or Mormons.
This ex-Mormon says it is true.
I'm lost at words. How is this biblical? How does wearing that underwear every day bring you closer to God?
Any Mormon care to chime in on here?
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@ztrussell Judgement day will not be a metaphysics quiz I am sure of it. Matthew 25 dispenses with any of that. Jesus taught his core doctrines - and his metaphysical properties were not central. To try to establish them as such is to fall into the pharisaical trap.
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Catholic article here but even as a Protestant the central point is so important to me:
Belief in Jesus is the key thing that makes someone a Christian, because what is ultimately affected is someone’s eternal destination.
“Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31).
Getting saved is not the end of Christianity but it’s absolutely the starting point. To believe in Jesus means to trust that he saves us, not our good works, which is what actually frees us to do good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).
In other words, “belief” in Jesus is everything. It’s the all-important moment that someone has “crossed over from death to life” (John 5:24). It is a singular moment in time that changes someone for all of time.
This is also why it’s so important to define who we mean by Jesus, and not simply because we’re being picky. Jesus himself said that false messiahs will appear, even do miracles, and try to deceive people. And a false Jesus cannot save you.
We don’t want anyone to have a false sense of eternal security.
Carl E. Olson@carleolson
From a 2023 @cworldreport with @TradVat2, a former member of the LDS: CWR: Mormons consider themselves Christians, although their beliefs are anything but orthodox, Trinitarian Christianity. Did you consider yourself a Christian in your days as a Mormon? Do you think most Mormons consider themselves to be orthodox Christians? Christiansen: I certainly considered myself a Christian as a Mormon. But by Christian, Mormons simply mean, “someone who purports to follow Jesus Christ.” The early history of Christianity and the import of those early councils is lost on most Mormons, who do not understand the context and controversies behind them sufficiently to understand why, generally speaking, the Nicene Creed is such a marker for who is and who is not a Christian. I do think most Mormons today consider themselves Christians; I do not think they would use the term “orthodox.” But again, what they mean is that they try to follow their own understanding of Jesus Christ, not that they follow the teachings of traditional Christianity when it comes to the nature of Christ. In his Introduction to Mere Christianity, C. S. Lewis briefly addresses the question of what defines “Christianity,” and he settles on belief, rightly, because he notes that if it merely about doing good for trying to follow Jesus’ teachings, anyone is a Christian if they so self-identify.
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@CatholicKyle It's more like we moved into town to try to improve it, but then our homes were burned, our wives were raped our children were killed and our "founder" was murdered in cold blood. Then we moved far far far away and created an awesome town that everyone wants to visit now.
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Mormons are like the sons of the business owner that moved to town a couple years ago. Yeah, they have money and they’re nice, but they act like they’ve been here since the beginning and say that it wasn’t really a town until they arrived.
They claim that your forefathers were so evil and incompetent that they couldn’t keep the town alive past the immediate successor of the founder of the town. However, thankfully their dad showed up to save everyone and he’s much better at succession planning than the original founder.
They also say that the founder of the town also founded their business… but in reality, he was really just a high-performing employee at a different branch of the company that moved up the corporate ladder. Nothing is known about his time at the other branch and the sons really wish you’d stop bringing it up. “We really don’t know how many founders there are, and it’s not our place to know”
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@lancevideos Okay, show me the 530 page book - but you have to dictate it straight from memory and you have no notes or AI. The book must contain hebraisms, chaismus, over 200 new nouns, and 20 Million+ people must read it and claim it's the word of God. Ready go!
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Hey guys! I just found diamond tablets in my backyard that talk about Jesus going to Mars to convert martians.
I’m the only one who can see or read these tablets so you are going to have to just trust me on this one. Also God said I can have 5 wives and I need you to pay me.
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@MikeWingerii We believe in about 98% of the content of the creeds. Luckily, I don't think judgement day will be a quiz on metaphysics.
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Mormons are often very personally offended when Christians say that Mormonism isn’t Christian. This is dumb.
Joseph Smith’s first “encounter” with God involves God telling Smith that every creed Christians profess is an abomination to God.
Every creed.
That includes the Nicene Creed. They reject who God is, who Jesus is, the nature of salvation, the nature of exaltation, the clear teaching of Scripture, etc..
Mormonism rejects the very core of the Christian faith in all its essentials. Joseph Smith knew this but nowadays they are playing mind games with their own people and with real Christians.
Either THEY are Christians or WE are. It’s one or the other. Not both.
When asked “Will all be damned but Mormons?” Smith replied, “Yes, and a great portion of them unless they repent and work righteousness” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg. 119)
The Doctrine and Covenants (1:30) leaves no doubt to the Mormon teaching of exclusivity when it says the LDS Church is “the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased ….”
Brigham Young, second only to Joseph Smith in Mormonism said…
“Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity” (Journal of Discourses 10:230).
“The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God” (Journal of Discourses 8:171).
I could easily give you pages of them saying they are the only true Christians and how we are all ignorant beasts and our doctrines are wrong. They knew at the time they had a different God, gospel, Scripture, and system of belief. But now it has become expedient to pretend otherwise while still preaching all those false and unchristian things.
Mormons, your leaders are gaslighting you and you are gaslighting us. You aren’t Christian but we want you to be. Flee from Mormonism. Flee from Joseph Smith.
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@HwsEleutheroi I can honestly say that I learn so much from other Christian commentators (including you), and that there's so much light and truth in other traditions. They aren't a threat to me and I accept truth from whatever the source. I rarely (if ever) see that attitude reciprocated.
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@HwsEleutheroi The most sincere (and honest critiques) attempt to "steelman" the other side and THEN attack it and see if it holds up. From the discourse I've seen, there's absolutely no curiosity, humility or willingness to concede that we have something special. It's all dismissed as demonic
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Read this entire post on the Dividing Line today and responded to it. An excellent example of the Neo-Morm movement.
America Only by Nico@AmericaOnlycast
I worship and acknowledge the supremacy and legitimacy of one God. That God has always been God as far as I (along with all my scriptural canon and the overwhelming majority of all ecclesiastical leaders of my faith) am concerned. That God in my belief taught that man is not complete without the woman for a reason… Kolob is never explained as a planet and the entire story of Kolob is believed by many to be a representation of Jesus Christ being taught to Abraham using the night sky. That Jesus and Satan in a sense share God the Father as their Eternal Father, but that Jesus is eternally superior to Lucifer and forever will be. I, along with the majority of those who follow my religion don’t ascribe to the postulate of infinite regress with the addendum of a multiplicity of Gods similar in power and dominion to our God. And that I will, as the scriptures say, inherit all that God has and be granted to sit with him on his throne if I overcome by faith. How does that look? We’re not completely certain. @LostMyHats that was a very poor strawman of our beliefs. There is scriptural, historical, and modern prophetic backing for everything I said, so go ahead and claim that im being disingenuous or whatever because you’ve watched enough YouTube videos about us🤷🏻♂️
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