David Shirres

@WilliamBarter1 @EngFocus Agreed though my concern is that in this case pandering to public perception is more important than rational analysis Maybe I’m being naive to expect anything else!

@DavidShirres @EngFocus North of Rugby is a national problem, Liverpool to Manchester is a regional problem. Yes which you value solving more is politics. So not necessarily rational. West Mids to Crewe and Liv-Man are trying to solve different problems so difficult to compare objectively.

At least the capacity issue is being debated more widely now. But other commentators and experts have been discussing the issue for over 2 years. The DfT simply shouldn't have let this issue go unaddressed for so long.

@WilliamBarter1 @EngFocus How goes WCML capacity problem north of Rugby compare with Liverpool to Manchester? Prioritising NPR over HS2 phase 2a is surely purely political as HS2 is toxic and it’s good to seen to spend on the North.

@EngFocus As long as a 400m solution for Manchester was on the horizon the capacity issue could have been regarded as temporary and to be managed. It is really the Sunak cancellations that mean it must be addressed as being a long term if not final state.

@Captain_Deltic @railnigel @LNER Suspect the answer is yes

@DavidShirres @railnigel @LNER Was his life at risk?

I’m on the rammed 1900 KGX- PBO and @LNER staff are doing an amazing job in challenging circs. Because I know what happened I understand why this chaos resulted but I reckon a debate is going to follow as to how risks are balanced/managed. Pax cannot understand why one trespasser

@gceccles @railnigel @LNER Yes, it was also good that train went back from near Retford to Newark where we were encouraged to leave the train for a walk on platform and fresh air. We were there for about 4 hours leaving at 0338 Train crew were great

@DavidShirres @railnigel @LNER Was there lights and a/c on in the train whilst you were stood?

@AngusTeee @concaveasitwere @DavidHorne @philatrail @LNER @NetworkRailEC Agreed, Despite massive inconvenience, I and others, were sympathetic to the troubled soul who was on the bridge. Have less sympathy for a line side trespasser. As I recall train crew didn't mention suicide but said someone was on the bridge and BT police were talking him down.

@DavidShirres @concaveasitwere @DavidHorne @philatrail @LNER @NetworkRailEC There are indeed sensitivities about mentioning suicide, but the scale of yesterday’s disruption - which has extended into today - surely warrants an exception being made? Delays of 8-12 hours and the ensuing chaos can hardly be minimised - especially for those affected.

Profound apologies to everyone whose travel has been disrupted on Thursday evening by the trespass incident at Retford, a train failure at Stevenage and other incidents. Despite the best efforts of @LNER and @NetworkRailEC colleagues, we were unable to get many of you to your destination on Thursday evening and I am very sorry for this extreme inconvenience. LNER services on Friday 17 April will be subject to alteration as the extended closure of the route on Thursday means that trains and crews are out of position. We will restore services back to normal as soon as we can - please follow LNER on social media and WhatsApp for updates.

@RAIL Chris Gibb's appointment as non exec director of DfTO has now been terminated as a result.

Vision for HS2 train fleets that could improve capacity and journey times set out railmagazine.com/news/hs2-propo…

@concaveasitwere @AngusTeee @DavidHorne @philatrail @LNER @NetworkRailEC Is it not fair to consider a post stating trespasser was on tracks when he was a potential suicide on a bridge to be an ill informed guess? Agree this info should have been communicated though suspect there are PR sensitivities about mentioning suicides.

@DavidShirres @AngusTeee @DavidHorne @philatrail @LNER @NetworkRailEC I think that’s very unfair David. No one is guessing , no one is saying it was easy. But such massive disruption needs review about how things can be improved from comms , approach and more generally approach to trespass. Playing the “you don’t care about life” is really unfair.

@concaveasitwere @DavidHorne @philatrail @LNER @NetworkRailEC Would agree. I was caught up in this on 1830 ex Kings Cross and got more information on train that in @LNER announcement. Think if folk knew this was a potential suicide rather than routine trackside trespass customers would have been more sympathetic. BTW train crew were superb

@DavidHorne @philatrail @LNER @NetworkRailEC If I might make gentle suggestion there really has to be more info and detail than this for such major disruption. A trespass incident causing this level of chaos needs more than bland “a trespass incident” to placate people with 6 hours delays and more surely?

@AngusTeee @concaveasitwere @DavidHorne @philatrail @LNER @NetworkRailEC He wasn't on track, He was a potential suicide on a bridge with police talking him down. Though about 10,000 folk affected, I think most of us would prioritse this guys life over our severe delay. Lesson here not to make assumptions til facts known.

@concaveasitwere @DavidHorne @philatrail @LNER @NetworkRailEC Exactly. This wasn’t the first ever trespasser on the tracks - what was so different about this one that caused such extensive and long lasting chaos? Where were the police? There are too many questions that need answering, given the level of disruption.

@philatrail I was on 1830 ex Kings Cross and arriving Waverley at 0715. Conductor advised that trespasser was on an overbridge and that BT police were talking him down, After 2 hours near Retford train went back to Newark and, after 3 1/2 hours left there at 0338. About 12 trains behind me.

There are certainly questions to be asked about how a trespasser can cause delays of the sort seen last night, typified by this RTT screenshot of LNER’s 1833 from King’s Cross.

@AndyRoden1 @LandSharkUK Absolutely though it won’t happen soon as HS2 is deemed to be politically toxic Instead a new line is to be built between Liverpool and Manchester which doesn’t have same capacity problem but is good politically as it’s seen to be investing in the North

@LandSharkUK Correct. Get it to Crewe and we relieve capacity on WCML South. And Midlands to Crewe is the easy bit of HS2.

Build HS2 to Crewe, and build 400m platforms at Piccadilly. With this, Manchester, Birmingham and London will be connected with a world class and very high capacity railway. Only at this point is the huge investment in HS2 actually worth while.

@EngFocus @WilliamBarter1 @owenoo What is current design for Handsacre? Original plan was for HS2 to join WCML fast lines With acceleration of phase 2a this was changed to slow lines with resultant conflicts acceptable for a few years With 2a cancelled will junction revert to original design?

@WilliamBarter1 @DavidShirres @owenoo How convinced are you that this could be accommodated via Handsacre? Preston service would definitely help cut the Glasgow journey time further. What infrastructure would be required to raise the non tilt MU speed?

So not only is Gibb still obsessed with 'tilt', the benefits of which are being over stated, he's potentially talking about cutting Manchester's connectivity with the South and reducing service provision for Stafford and Wolverhampton, by swapping XC with HS2 MAN-Curzon St. #HS2

@WilliamBarter1 @owenoo @EngFocus Getting lost too!

@DavidShirres @owenoo @EngFocus Frankly at this point I'm getting lost and the uncertainties are massive! Not sure this is useful, needs proper modelling again. If I have a brainwave I'll let you know.

@WilliamBarter1 @owenoo @EngFocus Thanks and agree detailed modelling needed considering all options before Gibbs’s proposal is dismissed BTW HS2 train contract specifies 3hr 45min with OOC & Preston stops. In 2009 Virgin did Preston stop only in 4hrs 8min

@WilliamBarter1 @owenoo @EngFocus Thanks Wouldn’t hang my hat on 17 minutes though key point is that with HS2 cutback the tilt savings become a significant proportion of HS2 time savings

@DavidShirres @owenoo @EngFocus Matching stopping patterns will be tricky but I will see what I can dig out …

@WilliamBarter1 @owenoo @EngFocus The comparison needs to be with a HS2 Class 895 Do you know what the running time for these trains between Handsacre and Glasgow will be with current stops?

@DavidShirres @owenoo @EngFocus Yes it is compatible with my 22 minutes, but 22 minutes is when compared with non-tilt 110mph loco and coaches which is simply not a valid comparison now.

@EngFocus @WilliamBarter1 @owenoo This thread misunderstands what Gibb aims to achieve which is to force the development of a HS2 train strategy which maximises seats and train speed. He’s right in not wanting changes to current order to keep 400m trains then saying Pendolino replacement needs to be considered

@WilliamBarter1 @DavidShirres @owenoo 17 minutes is the worst case scenario with non tilt MU speed remaining at 110. But the permissible MU speed can be raised without infrastructure work, albeit for speed bored replacements (this was supposed to have been carried out for cl397s) Also assumes the same calling pattern

@WilliamBarter1 @owenoo @EngFocus Various sources and calculation, seems consistent with you 22 min London Glasgow Also.NR consider 10 min saving for inf work which won’t solve whole problem. Accept this is indicative though shows Gibb proposal deserves consideration.

@DavidShirres @owenoo @EngFocus Also, need to boil down what in Gibb's leaflet is unique to his scheme or has a potential equivalent in HS2 plans. The answer I think is - now that we are having to have a sub-fleet, give that sub-fleet tilt. Everything else is potentially common to both but clouding the issues.

@WilliamBarter1 @owenoo @EngFocus Can't find any data so calculated HS2 savings of 27 min - 360 kph & 22m - 300 kph, Tilt savings of 17 min Handsacre - Glasgow so at 300 kph only 5 min saving without tilt. NR say 10 min saving with inf. work problematic for slower trains. So Gibb's idea deserve consideration.

@owenoo @DavidShirres @EngFocus I don’t quite agree, but must say I think being able to run 2tph direct between London and Glasgow would probably mean more than slight savings in journey time. You might even get both by sharing stops between the two.