Reformed to Rome

You can find all of my videos dealing with Protestant objections under the highlights section.

@BibleInContext1 It’s so silly at this point how theologically illiterate Pat is and refuses to learn basic use of terms above. Perhaps he will one day care about seeking truth over grifting. Pat, read a book:

Hey Liar finish the quotes: CCC 2027 No one can merit the initial grace which is at the origin of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit, 👉🏼we can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life, 👈🏻 as well as necessary temporal goods. CCC 2010 Since the initiative belongs to God in the order of grace, no one can merit the initial grace of forgiveness and justification, at the beginning of conversion. Moved by the Holy Spirit and by charity, 👉🏼we can then merit for ourselves and for others the graces needed for our sanctification, for the increase of grace and charity, and for the attainment of eternal life. 👈🏻 Even temporal goods like health and friendship can be merited in accordance with God's wisdom. These graces and goods are the object of Christian prayer. Let’s see if you have the courage to join me for open Mic Wednesday, May 27 2:30 PM Pacific standard time.

@BibleInContext1 @WesleyLHuff @WesleyLHuff don’t agree to go one this goobers channel. He routinely lies for monetary gain. He’s chosen mammon.

Wes Huff Is Right! Roman Catholicism is not biblical Christianity! If you would like to see Wes Huff and I talk about Roman Catholicism, send him a message and let him know! @WesleyLHuff When you get a free moment send be a DM Brother!

@JohnDOU59356797 @PabloLim7 @BaptistClips Those objections are not good ones. Ecclesiastes is a hyperbolic description of Sheol and not Heaven, and Deuteronomy is referring to conjuring souls out of Sheol and not asking believers in heaven to intercede for you. I cover those in depth here: youtu.be/CrqWsN6Ct5w?si…

Yes that is the difference we pray in Jesus name for others that are living. We don’t extend that to prayer to saints that have passed on. Ecc 9:5-6 Also for a point of reference the only occasion in the OT was Saul calling up Samuel, was it promoted as a good thing to do. Why was it? Because God had left off speaking to Saul. Was it a permitted route to God for intercession? Even Saul knew it was abominable in the sight of God because he previously tried to remove them from the land. Deut 18:10-14

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus 1 Timothy 2:5

@ChristySimm23 @Cee10William @whpub One cannot inquire of the dead in the OT without conjuring souls from Sheol.

@ReformedToRome @Cee10William @whpub It is not just from Sheol. "In Judeo-Christian scripture, necromancy is explicitly defined as any practice where someone "inquires of the dead" or "calls up the spirits of the dead".

In typical fashion, @ReformedtoRome attempts to rebut @ChristySimm23 by establishing prayers to saints and angels from antiquity (without citations), none of which hit the target. Keep in mind, Christy's objection was to "invoking the saints" in prayer to ask them to pray for us. None of RTR's claims overturn her observation that praying TO SAINTS came centuries after the apostles. What she said is true. CLAIM 1: Lot prays to an angel for intercession In Genesis 19:2, Lot says "Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house." Yes, they were angels, yes he "prayed" to them. They had presented themselves as humans, and Lot interacts with them as human visitors. In the same context, Lot "prays" to sodomites just a few verses later, "I pray you, brethren" (Gen 19:7). Lot was talking to men and angels, but it is ridiculous to apply the passage as evidence of "praying to angels." Does Lot therefore provide ancient evidence of praying to sodomites? 🤣 CLAIM 2: Paul prayed to other believer for intercession "Brethren, pray for us." (1 Th 5:25). Not exactly praying to the departed and to angels, but ok. CLAIM 3 :Jews already held to intercession of those in heaven Perhaps RTR speaks of Tobit 12:12-15 which has the angel Raphael presenting prayers to God and being sent to Tobit and Sarah to answer their prayers. Nothing objectionable here, as angels offering prayers of the saints (Rev 8:4) and angels being sent to answer prayers (Dan 9) is Scriptural. Importantly, however, while Tobit 12 has Raphael saying he brought their prayers before the Lord, neither Tobit nor Sarah had prayed TO RAPHAEL. Here are their prayers TO GOD that Raphael was sent to answer: Tobit: "You are righteous, Lord, and all your deeds are just..." (Tobit 3:2) Sarah: "Blessed are you, merciful God! Blessed be your holy and honorable name forever!" (Tobit 3:11) There was no prayer to Raphael. The prayer was to God alone. CLAIM 4: Hermas was said to have sought and received intercession from an angel No. In Book 3, Similitude 5, chapter 4 of the Shepherd of Hermas, he did not "seek" intercession from an Angel. Hermas received intercession from an angel who strengthened him (just as Elijah received "intercession" from a raven (1 Kings 17:6)). Neither Hermas nor Elijah (in these examples) had 'sought' such intercession. Hermas had not prayed to the angel, and Elijah had not prayed to the raven. 🤣 Notable in Similitude 5 all actual prayers are addressed SOLELY to God: "Every one who is the servant of God, and has his Lord in his heart, asks of Him understanding, and receives it." "Those who are weak and slothful in prayer, hesitate to ask anything from the Lord." "the Lord is full of compassion, and gives without fail to all who ask Him." "having been strengthened by the holy Angel ... why do not you ask of the Lord understanding"? "if I were to see or hear these things without you, I would then ask the Lord to explain them." (Similitude 5). None of these are "prayers" to an angel, and the "intercession" described is God sending an angel to help, but not someone praying to an angel to come help him. CLAIM 5: Origen noted you receive angelic intercession via prayer as you pray RTR refers to Against Celsus Book 5, paragraphs 4-5, proposing this as if it were some profound insight from Origen on the ancient Church's knowledge of angels, as if Christians did not already know from the Scriptures that they are ministering spirits sent forth to minister to us (Hebrews 1:14), a verse that Origen cites in that section. But Origen's conclusion based on his Scriptural knowledge of angels is that we are therefore not permitted to pray to anyone else but to God alone: "Then this knowledge, making known to us their [angels'] nature, and the offices to which they are severally appointed, will not permit us to pray with confidence to any other than to the Supreme God, who is sufficient for all things" (Against Celsus 5.5). CLAIM 6: Cyprian agrees with John that we continue to intercede on our behalf in heaven RTR is referring here to Epistle 56 in which Cyprian is alleged to have said, "Let us on both sides [of death] always pray for one another." Cyprian uses two terms for the death of the saints in his writings—dormition, or “falling asleep” for saints who die of typical means, and gloriosae mortis, or “glorious death” for martyrs. If you wonder which word he used here for "of death", you'll be sorely disappointed: he does not use any word for "death" at all. The edited citation from Cyprian is a typical Roman Catholic ruse, inserting the words "of death" to create the impression that Cyprian believed saints prayed for each other on both sides of death. In reality, Cyprian's use of "both sides" is always in reference to two parties or two opposing thoughts, as in "the divine Scriptures being brought forward on both sides, we balanced the decision" (Epistle 51.6). In Epistle 56, Cyprian is writing to the congregation in Rome, saying the congregations "on both sides" (in Rome and in Carthage) "should not cease to be instant with all the people in fastings, in watchings, in prayers ... with constant groanings and frequent prayers." Why? So if anyone dies, the prayers of the brethren will go on on earth, and "our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father's mercy." As Cyprian elsewhere writes, all our prayers ON EARTH are made in the presence of the Father: the Lord has bidden us to pray in secret .... that we may know that God is everywhere present" (Treatise, On the Lord's Prayer, 4) It's a request that the churches "on both sides" (Rome and Carthage) never cease to be in continual pray for each other in the presence of the Father. It is not a teaching that prayers of the saints continue "on both sides [of death]"! 🤣 CLAIM 7: [invoking the saints] was also part of early Christian liturgy Well, mentioning the departed saints was part of the ancient liturgy, but invoking them to pray for them and seek their prayers was not. The Martrydom of Polycarp mentions gathering "in memory of those who have already finished their course" (ch 18), and Cyprian refers to mentioning the names of the dead in the liturgy by way of remembrance, but not in terms of offering prayers to them or invoking their intercession on our behalf (Epistle 33). In sum, all 7 claims fail to address Christy's objection, and some of them even support her position: that we should pray to God alone. RTR may have other evidence to bring forward, but none of the seven above answer the mail.

@JohnDOU59356797 @PabloLim7 @BaptistClips The Lord says much more than his description of the sense of proseuchomai. God inspired Paul to describe praying to the body of Christ for their intercession. Proseuchomai is the only sense of prayer reserved for God alone. The others are not.

I could debate your opinion of that text in Timothy and what it is telling us. I will just go with what the Lord says. John 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you: John 14:13 Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

@afellowheir @walkingtherange @b1lld0zer @MJKelleyII He never defined it, that doesn’t occur in Luke. He never gives a list of what’s in each and Jews after Christ debated even what was in a tri part division.

@walkingtherange @ReformedToRome @b1lld0zer @MJKelleyII But wouldn't Jesus be our canon definer?

Name one unwritten tradition. I’ll wait

He didn’t affirm a particular recognized canon there because none was recognized universally yet. You’re begging the question. He’s affirming a summary. Which btw was still being debated as to what was included in each by Jews after Christ had died, raised, and ascended. You can’t question beg your way into a recognized canon.

@ReformedToRome @b1lld0zer @walkingtherange @MJKelleyII And so you think Christ affirmed the Hebrew Canon, but also didn't mention the Deuterocanon is also scripture?

@Captain__Ex @RyLo73835641 @___TheGOOdWitch Can you tell me what the wealthy patrons of the synagogues were called?

@ReformedToRome @RyLo73835641 @___TheGOOdWitch "Jesus is being hyperbolic" Why? "Because I said so, you can call someone Father even though he said not to" Yep keep insulting me and calling me lazy bud

Morality comes from reason. it comes from understanding consequences. from the human experience

As inspired yes of course that’s definitionally what mutually agreed upon means, but not as a universally recognized canon. For example if I say “the Torah is scripture” I’m making a mutually agreed upon statement between you and I but I’m not saying the Torah is the extent of my canon.

@ReformedToRome @b1lld0zer @walkingtherange @MJKelleyII And these agreed upon books. Did Jesus also agree with them?

@Captain__Ex @RyLo73835641 @___TheGOOdWitch This is not engagement 😆 this is lazy 👇🏻

@ReformedToRome @RyLo73835641 @___TheGOOdWitch *Directly engages with your argument "Youre too lazy to engage it"

@afellowheir @b1lld0zer @walkingtherange @MJKelleyII Mutually agreed upon inspired books thus far with a said group. The same would be true of any prior collections. Same as it worked for the NT canon formation. You have mutually agreed upon works and clarity until a final agreed upon universe canon is recognized.

@ReformedToRome @b1lld0zer @walkingtherange @MJKelleyII What did he relay?

@Captain__Ex @RyLo73835641 @___TheGOOdWitch I gave you an my depth analysis above. You’re too lazy to even engage it.

@ReformedToRome @RyLo73835641 @___TheGOOdWitch Can you give me something specific?

@afellowheir @b1lld0zer @walkingtherange @MJKelleyII God inspired the canon yes, Jesus did not relay a completed universal Jewish canon in Luke. Entirely different claims.

@ReformedToRome @b1lld0zer @walkingtherange @MJKelleyII Christ gave the canon.

@ChristySimm23 @Cee10William @whpub Necromancy involves conjuring souls from Sheol. That’s the worst argument ever. I cover it in depth here: youtu.be/CrqWsN6Ct5w?si…

@ReformedToRome @Cee10William @whpub The Bible doesn’t say “Don’t conjure souls from Sheol, but feel free to pray to saints in heaven.” It gives a blanket prohibition against trying to contact the dead. Those in Heaven: souls alive, dead on earth Those in Hell: souls alive, dead on earth Who else is dead?

@afellowheir @b1lld0zer @walkingtherange @MJKelleyII They preserved them yes. They never finalized a canon before Christ.

@b1lld0zer @walkingtherange @MJKelleyII @ReformedToRome Romans 3:2 the jews had the advantage because they were given the oracles of God. The Roman catholic church was established in the 300s

@ChristySimm23 @Cee10William @whpub Nowhere in scripture says not to pray to believers in heaven. It does say not to conjure souls out of Sheol. Entirely different things. That would be a terrible place to note praying to the saints as they weren’t in heaven.

@Cee10William @whpub @ReformedToRome If Jesus wanted to teach us to pray to dead saints, this would have been the perfect moment to say so, but He didn't. Scripture elsewhere told you not to pray to the dead but you're saying you would've listened the one time mentioned in a parable? Let's not get silly.

@whpub @ChristySimm23 @Cee10William I already noted both the bracketed word (which I didn’t cite) and then the fuller context which is explicitly referencing death which you of course edited out because you’re a dishonest hack.

@ReformedToRome @ChristySimm23 @Cee10William Did Cyprian write “on both sides of death” in that paragraph?

Read his argument saying it wasn’t referencing those in heaven vs what it says: “that if any one of us, by the swiftness of divine condescension, shall go hence the first, our love may continue in the presence of the Lord, and our prayers for our brethren and sisters not cease in the presence of the Father's mercy”

@afellowheir @MJKelleyII @walkingtherange @b1lld0zer Mutually agreed upon inspired texts, not a final universal Jewish canon.

@ReformedToRome @MJKelleyII @walkingtherange @b1lld0zer Okay you keep giving your opinion with no substance. In Luke 24:44 what is he talking about then. Please teach me

@ChristySimm23 @Cee10William @whpub He’s responding to my comment and then intentionally lying about Cyprian by slicing and dicing quotes as he always does. My comment is correcting his intentional lying. He takes the Muslim approach of lying is okay if it furthers his goals.

Where are we disagreeing, though? The quote from Cyprian is clearly about saints in heaven continuing to pray for the Church on earth. That’s not the issue. The issue is lack of any command or example in the New Testament, or in Cyprian, for Christians on earth to pray TO departed saints and ask them for intercession.