Skxrtch

@MateyYanakiev @DeportedBel @d_bahler @Nicholai_Korea Have you read Calvins commentaries on John? It gets into sufficient vs efficient salvation. Calvin explicitly says the its not extended to the reprobate. The "whole world" means only the world of believers. This is why double imputation connects PSA and limited atonement

@SkxrtchM @DeportedBel @d_bahler @Nicholai_Korea Because that’s the basic view the atonement’s benefits will not be effectually applied to all, since Calvin was not a universalist. That’s uncontroversial. What is of interest is that he affirms Christ suffered for the sins of the whole world, & only their unbelief impedes them.

Father Steven very clearly defined what he meant by spiritual death, when saying that reformed theology teaches that Jesus experience spiritual death on the cross to atone for our sins. In his explanation, spiritual death means separation from God. What reformed theologian DOESN'T teach this? Where is there there a reformed theologian that does not teach that Jesus on the cross experienced complete separation from God, the Father, abandonment, etc?

@MateyYanakiev @DeportedBel @d_bahler @Nicholai_Korea why did you not highlight the part where it says "not because it is in reality extended to all"

@SkxrtchM @DeportedBel @d_bahler @Nicholai_Korea Calvin explicitly taught UNlimited atonement (below), as did many of the greatest Reformed thinkers: Davenant, Amyrault, Baxter, etc. It was people like Owen who taught the (embarrassing) idea Christ had made a precise payment down to the cent only for the sins He would forgive.

@MateyYanakiev @DeportedBel @d_bahler @Nicholai_Korea The issue is, PSA which is specifically developed in a protestant context, is not separated from sola fide or double imputation. Double imputation is especially important as that's why limited atonement is derived from PSA

@DeportedBel @d_bahler @Nicholai_Korea Tbh, I honestly think he did an oopsie and said something that wouldn’t be orthodox.

@Soulful76_Leaf @ChrisWronx @blessedmikko Yeah man, logic isn't good enough lmao

@ChrisWronx @blessedmikko Cite one passage from Protestant literature that affirms eternal separation between Jesus Christ and the Father. "It logically leads to..." isn't good enough.

The affirmation that Christ died a spiritual death in the sense that He suffers in His soul or voluntarily takes up our abandonment &God-forsakenness is not a distinctive of Reformed theology, it’s found in the dogmatic theology textbooks of the Bulgarian & Moscow Patriarchates: ‘And the Lord Jesus also took upon Himself both the curse and the abandonment—understood as the feeling of abandonment on the Cross: “My God, My God! Why hast Thou forsaken Me?” (Matt. 27:46)—and other such things which do not belong to Him (by nature Christ had no sin), without being or becoming such, but only taking our responsibility upon Himself, having set Himself together with us. Such is also the meaning of the words: “Having become a curse for us” (Gal. 3:13).’ –D.V. Dyulgerov & E. Tsonevski, Orthodox Dogmatic Theology, Vol. 2, §12 ‘In the works of the holy Fathers, there is described the spiritual experience of God-forsakenness, which is subjectively lived through by the person as the most grievous experience of death, abyss, darkness, and Hades. In its essence, this is a personal experience, conditioned by various causes and not necessarily conjoined with a real loss of communion with God. Nevertheless, inwardly, it is endured as one of the most terrible trials of human consciousness, when a man senses himself standing on the brink of non-being in a state of deepest despair, without any support from God. This state—the consequence of human sin—was assumed and experienced (without separation of the Godhead and the manhood) by the Lord Jesus Christ upon the Cross, as His words bear witness: My God, My God! why hast Thou forsaken Me? (Mt. 27:46). One may say that eternal torments, in a certain sense, are an infinite existential death.’ –Fundamentals of Orthodox Anthropology, 2.2.3

@Canonandcreed @Alex_Ortodoxie The fact you sit here on X debating with people constantly, but wont engage in actual debate format shows everyone you are only good a spewing rhetoric behind a screen and cant defend your positions in a serious way. Same with your videos on YT. Just saying stuff behind a screen

1. You accuse others of shifting the goal posts constantly. When it’s you that does. 2. You constantly accuse others of not understanding what you believe. Yet you don’t understand what others believe and very clearly have no desire to do such. 3. You whine about me not engaging you and “running” while simultaneously saying I’m a clueless doink. Then why are you constantly crying that I ignore you? I don’t cry about clueless doinks not engaging me. But I think we both know you do actually think I’m worth my salt at least to some degree and so you want to do your theological pep rally for your audience by trying to dunk on me, get your clicks, and say “see this guy is clueless!” But maybe I’m completely wrong. 4. If you understand Dr. Cooper didn’t mean it the way SDY did, then why the hell did you reply to my comment with a clip of Jordon when I was responding to @ErickYbarra3 regarding SDY’s claim? Why even interject Dr. Cooper? The reality is you’re a bad faith broker and I have zero respect for you. I already told you why I ignore you because you can’t even be bothered to do the heavy lifting and you shoot from the hip for your clicks. And I’m supposed to take that seriously when I put in over 150 hours in my interaction with Rock and Sand? 😂 Yeah, kick rocks and don’t let the door hit you on the ass on your way out. Go learn to meaningfully engage and then come talk to me. For all the flack you guys give @sincead33, he’s at least good faith and can have a meaningful discussion and walk away still agreeing — and even recognize when he might have been wrong about other people’s views. Same with Erick, @DoorDashThomist, and various other Roman Catholics. You haven’t demonstrated this a single time that I’ve seen. So I don’t take you seriously. Continuing to yell “YOURE RUNNING” changes nothing. Put in the actual work and I’ll take you seriously. Until then, keep telling yourself everyone’s afraid to overcompensate.

For a guy who claims to be a lawyer I can’t imagine having you represent someone legally. Especially considering you’ve said others lack reading comprehension. No, we started by engaging with your idol claiming PSA involves CHRIST dying a spiritual death. Hordes of people corrected this blatant and easily falsifiable claim, including @DrJordanBCooper who you slandered and misrepresented numerous times, and now you resort to crying foul and claiming the goalposts have shifted. Dr. Cooper never claimed JESUS TOOK ON A SPIRITUAL DEATH. You keep inserting this and then whining that all you said is he said the verbatim words “spiritual death” and nothing about its “entailments.” He said Christ paid the penalty for such, not that He Himself experienced soul death. Stop whining and crying that I won’t engage your circus and throw peanuts in the monkey gallery when you repeatedly demonstrate that you aren’t an honest faith broker.

@IFFFMEISTER @Acolyte83349490 Lmao, Luther and Calvin both said Christ was damned. Institutes Book II, Chapter 16, John Calvin Treatise on Preparing to Die, Martin Luther

@Acolyte83349490 you can argue that, but you cannot argue that they held that the Son was damned.

i can solve this easily One of the #1 critiques Lutherans and Reformed have had of Word of faith is WOF view of atonement requires that Jesus died spiritually. Now I'm not a rocket scientist but i'm pretty sure it would be stupid to criticize that so harshly if you believed it

@TheOrthoEnsign @blessedmikko Citing Paul Washer for protestantism is crazy

@SkxrtchM @blessedmikko Christ was punished by the Father, and offered to the Father, and the debt was owed to the Father. But Protestants don't claim it was JUST the Father. x.com/TheOrthoEnsign…

I don’t mean to be rude, but you don’t know what you’re talking about. Penal substitution does not affirm that Christ’s sacrifice was only offered to the Father, in exclusion of the Trinity. All confessional Protestants believe the 3 persons are involved in the redemptive act, this is basic stuff. The reason Orthodox in particular emphasise that the Trinity is involved in the redemptive act is simply due to the theological controversy regarding Soterichus’ views in the 12th century, who affirmed a staged reconciliation, first to the Son at the Incarnation, then to the Father at Golgotha. There was no such controversy elsewhere.

@blessedmikko x.com/i/status/20252…

@SkxrtchM x.com/i/status/20251…

@mozgus14 @blessedmikko You have John Calvins institutes that explains it this way, Martin Luther explained it this way in several of his sermons. Literally any Presbyterian systematic theology book explains it this way. PSA in protestant theology is Christ paying a debt to the Father specifically

@SkxrtchM @blessedmikko Do you have any works by protestants theologians where they explain PSA this way? Genuinely interested

@blessedmikko I agree. Which is why Protestant soteriology and PSA is false

@SkxrtchM There aren’t separate wraths & justices in the persons of the Trinity per them, so this critique only convinces yourself.

@silverman_64098 @blessedmikko @Gedeon_Optinius @bertollii_ @valorthodoxia Christ taking on human nature does nothing for humanity he says

Val, how would you understand Abp. Sylvester Stoychev’s teaching on the cry of dereliction? He, as you may or may not know, is the current rector of the UOC’s Kiev Theological School. ‘..“My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?” Why did our Lord say these words? The Fathers explain that God, in Justice, ought to have punished all people by His abandonment of them, and that Adam & Eve in particular ought, in strict Justice, to have been punished by this abandonment. They did something that radically contradicts the state of communion with God; what radically contradicts communion with God is being forsaken by God. Adam and Eve deserved to be abandoned by God, but out of His love for His creatures, God does not abandon His creation. Nevertheless, Christ, as the New Adam, had to experience what, by the law of Justice, the Old Adam ought to have experienced—this absolute and complete abandonment by God. Only one human being, Jesus Christ, experienced this fully, on the Cross. None of us, not even the greatest sinner, is in a state of complete abandonment by God, nor feels it in full measure. Only Jesus Christ took upon Himself the very experience which Adam & the whole human race ought to have undergone: abandonment by God in all its terrible manifestations. Thus Jesus Christ redeemed not only the consequences of sin but also all those punishments which Adam and Eve and their descendants ought to have experienced in full measure, but did not.’ –Dogmatic Theology Lecture 15, “Christ: The Saviour of the World”

@YariLogos When have I accused you of promoting PSA?

Guy who accuses me of PSA links my own article about how Orthodoxy isn't PSA Make it stop

@taperchipmunk32 @DPGBehler I just did. Are you not able to extract that saluting the flag and singing a hymn dedicated to it, is literally identical to icon veneration? You already said saluting the flag and all that isn't worship, so you already know the difference

Icon veneration will always keep me out of the EO and the RCC.

@dumbsushi @DPGBehler With this post

@SkxrtchM @DPGBehler Where did he claim this?

Catholics describe their tradition the same way when they’re telling me I need to join it. And this sort of appeal from EOs and RCCs is equally annoying to me. It’s not just “forsake your wrong belief,” it’s “forsake your wrong belief by joining my tradition.” Quick way to fail at “evangelism.”

@Gedeon_Optinius @blessedmikko @bertollii_ @valorthodoxia It has nothing to do with your personal position. It has to do with what the words in PSA mean, which are not correct in describing the atonement. The words don't even reflect the concept of justice that is in scripture or in the fathers. orthochristian.com/105429.html

@SkxrtchM @blessedmikko @bertollii_ @valorthodoxia "PSA also puts the Father punishing the Son as thats who the Son Is offered uo to," You really don't know our position do you...

@blessedmikko @Gedeon_Optinius @bertollii_ @valorthodoxia "The Cross is the moment in which the reconciliation happens." Wrong again, the reconciliation happens as soon as Christ took on human nature. Blachernae condemns your position. PSA is just on its face incorrect

@SkxrtchM @Gedeon_Optinius @bertollii_ @valorthodoxia The Cross is the moment in which the reconciliation happens. Do you think original sin is progressively forgiven & death overthrown ever so slightly from the incarnation onward as if it’s on some meter? You can’t be this dense lmfao.