Niklas 🏵️

But this stands in stark contrast to the Book of Abraham where a un-orthodox, pseudo-ephigraphical text is wrongly elevated to be scripture.

From a historical-christian perspective: the Creed is not Scripture, but it is a faithful catholic confession of what Scripture already teaches. That is why the Lutheran Confessions receive the Apostles’, Nicene, and Athanasian Creeds.

Mormon apolegetics when you talk about the Book of Abraham:

Update: This mormon has blocked me after saying he provided scholarly evidence, which he has in fact: not....

@TryinDaily @carbonmfg @m3lonh3ad @GCC317 @LutheranAnswers On the count of it being God-breathed scripture, a lot of more work would be needed to be done tho. (but everything i read up until here did not convince me)

@TryinDaily @carbonmfg @m3lonh3ad @GCC317 @LutheranAnswers If that proof was actually scholarly work like f.e. the Institut für Neutestamentliche Textforschung does at Münster providing us with a awesome base for the NT greek then yes, I'd propably change my mind about it being pseudo-epigraph.

What if we had another document he translated? Like a papyri or something?

@m3lonh3ad @carbonmfg @GCC317 @LutheranAnswers The Book of Abraham has the opposite problem: the extant papyri contain funerary texts, not Abraham, and the LDS Church itself admits the characters don’t match Joseph’s translation. “Copies of copies” is not the same problem as “the text is not there.”

@m3lonh3ad @carbonmfg @GCC317 @LutheranAnswers Nobody claimed we have NT autographs. We have thousands of manuscript witnesses containing the NT text, which is exactly why textual criticism can compare and reconstruct it.

@AustinFarle @LutheranAnswers I’m happy to discuss the actual merits. My argument is simple: the extant papyri/facsimiles do not match Joseph’s claimed translation, and appealing to a conveniently missing “real” papyrus is not evidence. If that is a “tired trope,” then refute it with the manuscript evidence.

@boundtotheword @LutheranAnswers It comes off as you are based on how you are reacting. Have you considered it is because instead of discussing it like someone who is studying the subject would, you are just engaging in the same tired tropes instead of anything of actual merit? Hence the gifs and diagrams.

Mormons are amazingly dishonest about their faith. They say that the papyri Joseph Smith translated was destroyed in the Chicago Fire, when in fact a large portion of it was recovered undamaged. Enough of it was recovered, in fact, for us to determine two very specific things about it: 1) It was an ancient copy of an egyptian scroll we have other copies of. 2) We know that it was a funeral scroll, and that Smith's translation was bogus - such to the point that even the LDS church now says that Smith didn't literally translate the document, but offered a "spiritual translation."

> Interacts with mormons on X once:

@AustinFarle @LutheranAnswers I’m not neurotic im just a bit taken a back by your side of the “Followers of Christ” not answering questions but instead using Trump gifs, the Dunning Kruger effect and now calling me neurotic lol - I’m studying this stuff at Uni and want to discuss it calmly and scholarly.

@boundtotheword @LutheranAnswers Also, are you neurotic? You seem to be taken things way too personally.

@m3lonh3ad @carbonmfg @GCC317 @LutheranAnswers Then show me that the book of Abraham was actually written by Abraham and not pseudoepigraph. This would be the first step to establish its authority.

@boundtotheword @carbonmfg @GCC317 @LutheranAnswers No. I didn't make your point. I showed you how your criticism was spurious and unconnected to anything of value.

@AustinFarle @LutheranAnswers Then prove me from you side with scholarly arguments (if I’m so uneducated) where the manuscript tradition is going back to Abraham himself or anything that proves this book was written by Abraham. Or tell me how you think I should study the issue.

@boundtotheword @LutheranAnswers I know you think you did

@m3lonh3ad @carbonmfg @GCC317 @LutheranAnswers Manuscripts as for example there are for the gospels? Or the rest of the patriarchial literature contained in the Old Testament?

@m3lonh3ad @carbonmfg @GCC317 @LutheranAnswers You made my point for me. Answer me this, then I’ll convert to Mormonism: Where do we have preserved manuscripts of the “Book of Abraham” going back to Abraham himself that hold up to scholarly examination? If this is actually god given testimony then why aren’t there as many (1)

@AustinFarle @LutheranAnswers How respectful of you. Actually I am quite well versed when it comes to New Testament textual critisism and I used the same principles to inquire about the “book of Abraham” which I see as a pseudo-epigraph book after 4-6h of research of both LDS and non LDS scholarly research.

@boundtotheword @LutheranAnswers Because you suffer from the same effect as Lutheran Answers