Michael E. Perry

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This statement is a false dichotomy, and it doesn't hold up under logical scrutiny for a few reasons. First, it commits the Fundamental Attribution Error. You are assuming that you know the internal motivations of an entire group of people (Christians) while assuming your own group (atheists) acts solely on pure principle. That is an unfalsifiable claim; you are attributing 'fear' to others while assigning 'altruism' to yourself, which creates a biased premise that can't be tested or proven. Second, it relies on a misconception of what 'obedience' means in a moral framework. You are framing obedience as a surrender of autonomy acting only to avoid punishment. However, for many people of faith, obedience is an act of alignment. If someone believes in an objective moral standard, choosing to follow that standard is a deliberate, intellectual decision to live in accordance with their values. It is no different, logically speaking, than an atheist choosing to act in accordance with their own internal moral code. Both are choosing to submit their actions to a standard they believe is 'right.' I find it odd that you, an atheist, call anything “right”. By what standard do you consider anything to be ‘right or wrong’?

atheists do the right thing because it’s the right thing to do christians do the right thing out of fear and obedience we are not the same

@OffensiveHugs According to the bible, what does the Holy Spirit do for humans?

The best of anti Mormons critics cannot negate the testimony of the Holy Ghost. I echo with the prophet Joseph Smith: "I knew it, and I knew that God knew it, and I could not deny it, neither dared I do it"

@BenBird53920553 @j_divis Same here. 8 I was baptized against my will because it was expected of me. 38ish I was baptized into Christ with my son. Second one was beautiful. Something I’ll always remember.

@j_divis My fake Mormon baptism happened when I was 8. My real Catholic baptism happened when I was 38.

Trying to prove a point. How old were you when you were baptized?

@3Trumpeteer @BasicBaptistGuy Peace be with you. I’ve enjoyed our conversations.

@lcbchefperry @BasicBaptistGuy I read these verses and don’t see any contradictions in my belief. I appreciate you trying to clarify your understanding but it doesn’t work for me. The three distinct persons in Genesis being referred to as one lord reinforces the idea that the godhead are three distinct persons

@lcbchefperry @BasicBaptistGuy Jesús is the God of Israel who descended below all things to raise us up to be joint heirs with Him. I agree with most of what you said but the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are separate beings.

If you will, allow me to share with you what the holy scriptures say about the nature of God. Read the words of the Moses with an open heart. Listen to Isaiah’s words. Open your mind to John as he speaks. Just think about what’s being said. Let it sink in before devising a quick retort. In Deuteronomy 6:4, we find the Shema, the heart of Jewish confession: "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one." The Hebrew word for "one" here is echad. It is the same word used in Genesis 2:24 to describe a man and woman becoming "one flesh." It denotes a singular, indivisible essence. When the Torah insists that God is echad, it is emphatically distinguishing Him from the pantheons of other nations. He is not a collection of beings; He is a singular, eternal, and indivisible reality. When we look at the nature of God, we have to grapple with the explicit revelation in the Bible. In John 4:24, Jesus tells the woman at the well: "God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." The Greek word used for "Spirit" is pneuma. In the biblical context, pneuma describes an essence that is not composed of physical matter. Unlike humans, who are "flesh and bone" (sarx kai ostea), God’s nature is fundamentally distinct. This is why Isaiah 40:18 asks, "To whom, then, will you compare God? What image will you compare him to?" If God were composed of flesh and bone, He would easily be comparable to humans. But the scripture maintains that He is the Creator, existing outside the limitations of physical anatomy. You’ve likely studied Genesis 18, where three visitors appear to Abraham at Mamre. This is one of the most powerful moments in the Old Testament, and it creates a bridge for us to discuss the nature of God. When Abraham sees them, he bows down and addresses them as "My Lord" (using the singular, divine Adonai in verse 3. He doesn’t address them as three but rather one). It is clear that Abraham perceives a divine presence here. In theology, we call this a Christophany, a pre-incarnate appearance of the Son of God, often accompanied by angels. Here is the crux: While the text shows three figures, the revelation consistently points to the One God. Abraham speaks to them as one, yet he sees three. This mirrors the mystery of the Trinity: the One God manifesting His presence in a way that relates to human history. Where we might differ is in how we interpret those three visitors. If we hold that they are three separate, distinct, and individual gods (or beings who are "one" only in purpose), we risk falling into the very trap the Shema warned against: dividing the essence of God. However, if we view the Christophany as the One God, who is Spirit, temporarily "veiling" Himself in a form that Abraham could interact with, it preserves the truth of the Shema. It means that when Abraham worshipped them, he was not worshipping three different beings; he was worshipping the one, eternal God who was condescending to interact with him in a form he could comprehend. This makes the intimacy of God much more powerful. It means that when God interacts with us, He isn't sending a "representative" or a "subordinate" to do His work. He is coming to us Himself. He is the Father who speaks, the Son who appears, and the Spirit who dwells within us. When you read the account of Abraham, does it resonate with you to think that the God you worship is not just a participant in a council of gods, but the singular Creator who is so intimate that He would come down and walk among us personally?

@BasicBaptistGuy @lcbchefperry I don’t deny what the scripture says. But I understand it differently than you. If you believe that God is without parts or passions and that we are ontologically different from God than you are lost. Whether you follow the creeds or not.

I agree. Belief or faith in Jesus leads to us wanting to do as much as we can because we love him. Not that it adds to our salvation but is a sign of true faith. It’s like a James says, be doers of the word and not just hearers. Regarding baptism, if a believer has the opportunity to be baptized they should run to it with joy. If the believer does not have the opportunity, God knows their heart and will not hold it against them for they would have been baptized had they the chance.

@lcbchefperry @BasicBaptistGuy It not in those verses but it is all over the rest of the New Testament. Belief naturally leads to obedience and obedience includes baptism.

@lcbchefperry @BasicBaptistGuy Hell

@3Trumpeteer @BasicBaptistGuy Just curious about your understanding of Matthew 7:12-14. Where do you find the verse that talks about baptism and authority in this text? And, I absolutely agree with you on doing the will of the father. John 6:40 clearly tells us the will of the Father.

@lcbchefperry @BasicBaptistGuy Matthew: the gate is narrow because only those who have authority from God can baptize. Also, only those who do the will of the Father can enter. It’s a straight path to eternal life but a winding one to destruction. The second death is a spiritual death. Separation from God.

@3Trumpeteer @BasicBaptistGuy What are your thoughts on Matthew 7:13-14 and Revelations 20: 13-14?

@lcbchefperry @BasicBaptistGuy Yes and no. Satan and his angels will go to outer darkness fully out of Gods presence. Very few people will fall to his level. Most everybody will receive some degree of glory but their suffering includes separation from Gods presence.

To understand the phrase "heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ" in Romans 8:17, it is helpful to look at the original Greek language Paul used. When Paul wrote this, he was utilizing the legal and social framework of adoption prevalent in the Roman world to explain the believer's new status in Christ. In Greek, the word for "heir" is kleronomos. In the context of 1st-century Roman adoption, an heir did not inherit the nature or essence of the father; rather, an adopted son was legally granted the status and rights of a child. Paul uses this metaphor to describe the believer's legal standing before God. When he calls us kleronomoi theou ("heirs of God"), he is emphasizing that believers have been brought into a familial relationship through faith a status that allows us to receive the promised blessings of God's covenant. The term Paul uses for "fellow heirs" is sunkleronomoi. This prefix sun- signifies "together with." The verse states we are fellow heirs with Christ. In biblical theology, this "co-inheritance" is defined by our union with Christ. Because Christ is the true Son, sharing in His inheritance means that everything the Father has promised to the Son such as eternal life, glory, and the restoration of creation is shared with those who are "in Him". However, this does not imply that we become equal to the Father or possess His divine attributes. Rather, as Thompson (n.d.) notes, the creation and the created order remain distinct from God's being; we are always the product of His grace and never become part of the Godhead itself.

@lcbchefperry @BasicBaptistGuy Exactly what it sounds like. We are heirs of God and will sit on the throne of God with Christ. We have the potential to gain all that the Father has

@3Trumpeteer @BasicBaptistGuy Is this teaching from the Bible or one of the three LDS holy books?

@3Trumpeteer @BasicBaptistGuy Exactly. I agree with you. There is Hell, which was made for the devil and his angles, and the lake of fire. Those that do evil and reject Jesus go to hell and ultimately hell is thrown into the lake of fire. Do you agree with this?

@lcbchefperry @BasicBaptistGuy Eternal

@3Trumpeteer @BasicBaptistGuy Cool. Does God have a test for prophets, so we know if the words spoken are from Him?

@BasicBaptistGuy @lcbchefperry I don’t feel the need to know the details of every verse in the Bible. I trust God and His chosen prophets

The Book of Mormon is Gods word

@3Trumpeteer @BasicBaptistGuy What does Jesus call it in the Bible?

@BasicBaptistGuy @lcbchefperry We believe differently in hell than you do. We call it spirit prison or Sheoul.

@lcbchefperry @BasicBaptistGuy You’re free to believe that.

I understand why you would think these disprove the hypostatic union, but it think you’ll agree with me that “A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text." Stole that from D.A. Carson. When you read these verses, consider asking: "If Jesus were only God, would He be able to be our brother? If He were only a man, would His sacrifice be enough to save us?" These passages are not contradictions; they are the "both/and" reality of the incarnation. They demonstrate a Savior who is truly close enough to be our brother (Humanity) and truly powerful enough to be our God (Divinity). Do you find that this distinction between His two natures helps clarify why He might speak of the Father as "greater" in some contexts while claiming to be one with Him in others? 1. John 5:19 – "The Son can do nothing of his own accord..." In this passage, Jesus is explaining the relationship between the Son and the Father. When He says He can do nothing "of his own accord," He is not describing a limitation of His divine power, but rather the perfect ontological unity between the Father and the Son.  If Jesus were a separate, independent God, He might act independently. But because He is the Son, eternally begotten of the Father, He acts in perfect, inseparable harmony with Him. Far from disproving His divinity, this verse highlights that He shares the same nature and will as the Father. He is doing the Father’s work because He is the expression of the Father’s work.  2. John 20:17 – "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God." This is perhaps the most frequent verse used to argue that Jesus cannot be God. However, the hypostatic union provides the perfect explanation: Jesus is speaking from His human nature. As a man, Jesus was born under the Law, lived a life of faith, and relied upon the Father just as we do. By calling the Father "my God," Jesus is identifying with our humanity. He is the "firstborn among many brothers" (Romans 8:29), representing us before the Father. If Jesus were only God, He would not have a "God." By acknowledging the Father as His God, He confirms that He truly became one of us, "in every respect... made like his brothers" (Hebrews 2:17). He is both the God who is worshipped and the Man who worships.  3. Revelation 3:21 and Romans 8:16–17 Revelation 3:21: Jesus promises that those who conquer will sit with Him on His throne, just as He conquered and sat down with His Father on His throne. This verse underscores His role as the mediator. He has paved the way for humanity to share in the glory of God. He occupies the throne as the God-man, the bridge between heaven and earth. Romans 8:16–17: These verses describe us as "heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ." This doesn't pull Christ down to our level; it elevates our position through our union with Him. Because He has taken on our human nature, we are brought into a relationship with the Father through Him. Something to ponder. If Jesus was just another God, he would have the autonomy to disobey the Fathers. But Jesus said, I can only do what I see the father do. John 5:19

@lcbchefperry @BasicBaptistGuy 1. John 5:19 2. John 20:17 3. Revelation 3:21 and Romans 8:16-17

@3Trumpeteer @BasicBaptistGuy I’ve gotta go run some errands. Not ghosting this great conversation, just taking care of something. Peace be with you.

@lcbchefperry @BasicBaptistGuy

@3Trumpeteer @BasicBaptistGuy Enlighten me. I’d like to see what you consider evidence. By the way, I was LDS for over two decades. I know where you’re coming from.

@lcbchefperry @BasicBaptistGuy I can. But you’d just disagree with my understanding of the scripture and we’d be right back here