Alexander 'Lex' Williams

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Alexander 'Lex' Williams

Alexander 'Lex' Williams

@squidlord

Author, game geek, curator. Irritant. pilin ike li ken. pilin monsuta li wile.

Lawrenceville, GA Katılım Şubat 2007
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Alexander 'Lex' Williams
Alexander 'Lex' Williams@squidlord·
What is Grim Tokens? A digital garden, within which I'll regularly write about tabletop RPGs, wargames, and tabletop culture. Not only short-form thoughts but longform articles and even actual play of primarily solo RPG experiences. #TTRPG #blog #writing #solorpg #wargame
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Alexander 'Lex' Williams
@gnomedepot Some married people pick fights with dragons, mainly in two cases. Firstly, if they no longer want to be married. Secondly, if they're married to the dragon.
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TheGnomeDepot
TheGnomeDepot@gnomedepot·
NPC 1: Do you see those adventurers over there fighting that Blue Dragon? NPC 2: Oh it isn’t going well for them. NPC 1: Do you think any of them are married? NPC 2: Nah. Married people don’t pick fights with dragons.
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Alexander 'Lex' Williams
This is certainly a take. A shame that it doesn't have anything to do with reality or the history of the hobby, but it's certainly words made of murdered electrons cast into the void of the internet. So it has that going for it. People love generic systems. In part, people love generic systems because they are easy to tinker with and customize for specific genre or setting modifications. The reason that Savage Worlds doesn't get talked about much is because it doesn't publish much. For a while, it seemed to be all that the people between really traditional Fantasy Kitchen Sink and hardcore story games would talk about. That was a period of several years. There are still really hardcore Savage World fans, and I understand. I don't share it, but I understand. It is a very hackable core, just like GURPS and Hero before it, like Unisystem alongside of it, and like a ton of other mechanical cores along the years. Hell, at this point, I think there's a reasonable argument to be made that D&D itself qualifies as a universal rule system, given how many times it's been twisted and mutilated into doing any number of things which the original designers of the core mechanics never dreamed of. Most of which were unsuitable, but they were done anyway. D20 Modern was an abomination, and I don't care who hears me say it.
Night Danger@WithNightDanger

Universal rule systems annoy people. If I want to do a genre I want the mechanics to support and incentivize that.

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Alexander 'Lex' Williams
That is why you try a multitude of things. Not all of them will work with the crew that's there. Some of them will require cultivating a crew for it once you have some people who have some trust that you are going to follow through on a regular basis. First you do to prove you can, and then you get interest. It might be for one person, it might be for two people, it might be for three people, it might be for five people. It doesn't matter. First you have to prove that you can deliver before you really start getting traction. Have you asked around there to find what people actually do want to play? Not necessarily so that you can run it, but so that you can have a general idea of what genres, styles, and modes they're interested in. Frankly, you would have almost no luck convincing me to play in an old school game in the kitchen sink fantasy mold. I suspect that the people who want to play that are already in that because it's very easy to find. Those are not the people who will show up regularly to a game night at a friendly local gaming store. They're already in a game night. You need to find what people want to do and are interested in tinkering with. Maybe it'll be a one-off, maybe it'll be a short arc, maybe it'll be a long-form campaign, but you can't plan for that.
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Nobleshield
Nobleshield@Nobleshield·
@squidlord That's interesting. The biggest issue, I think, will be getting people interested. I've tried twice to get people to look at old-school, and it's only been a few of my Warhammer friends and my wife who have shown any interest at all (we are playing Castles & Crusades now)
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Nobleshield
Nobleshield@Nobleshield·
If my LGS moves stores, we might have a dedicated TTRPG game room. If that's the case, I might just try to do a full open table, whoever shows up plays campaign to make good use of it. No idea what system I'd use, but I am getting Castle Zagyg part 1 🤔🤔🤔🤔
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Alexander 'Lex' Williams
Here's the problem. While I appreciate the entirety of that thread and don't disagree with it, that has nothing to do with story gaming, which is an actual thing, and not just a random slur that gets tossed around by people who have never played anything but D&D over the last 30 years. It's hard to imagine that it has an independent existence, and yet here we are. All those things are actually true of narrative-first and fiction-forward game designs as well, and usually dealt with directly in the text of the game. Hell, pick up a copy of Blades in the Dark, probably one of the most succinct and straightforward fiction-forward RPG designs of the relatively early era. It's full of discussion about how to avoid those pitfalls and to let the game be led by the players and what the characters actually want and pursue. But you wouldn't know that unless you had actually read it, or at least shown vague interest since it was published in 2017. But if you were really on top of things, you would know that those things have been real discussions, active discussions in tabletop RPGs, even before story gaming became a term of art. If we really want to, we can go back to the original publication of Ars Magica in '87, which talked about all of those elements alongside troupe-style play. Or if you want something even more extreme and less spoken about, Prince Valiant in 1989, which was very verbal about encouraging the storyteller to hand narrative control over to the players, letting them frame scenes and invent details about the world on the fly. Sure, we really start seeing the term story gaming enter the lexicon of tabletop RPGs around 2000, which is where things really start getting fiction forward and narrative. This is also where the longtime D&D players aggressively stated their disinterest in everything related to story games and doubled down on scenario play and DM centrism. If it seems like people who have been into story games are a little touchy about the dismissive attitude and deliberate painting of anything but a railroad-heavy, scenario-focused playstyle, as seen in the vast majority of D&D over the last 50 years, realize there are good reasons. These are old discussions that we've been over for longer than many of the people involved in them have been alive. Ironically, and I mean this with all the venom that remains unstated, all the talk about "railroading" comes from the traditional game architecture side of the house. It doesn't come from story gaming, for the most part, when you stop putting the GM at the center of the table and sometimes remove them from the table altogether, railroading doesn't happen because the fiction flows in the other direction and the fiction comes first. By that I mean it's not imposed from above, but it is the direct and straightforward actions of the characters as driven by the players.
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Black Dragon Games - Building Bhakashal
As a final note, I would add that DMs who play with no particular story in mind can still railroad, as they may want a particular encounter to happen as they put a lot of work into it, or for some other non-story related reason. Learning how to let things happen is hard.
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Black Dragon Games - Building Bhakashal
I'm going to respectfully push back on this a bit. First, I agree 100%, story gaming does not mean railroading. You can absolutely sit down as the DM with your friends to tell a collaborative story together without railroading them. That's all good.
Huckleberry Spyder@crescendogames9

I am considering punishing with a rolled-up newspaper all my OSR friends who keep using "storygaming" to mean "railroading fools". Right. On. The nose.

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Nobleshield
Nobleshield@Nobleshield·
Why do none of these open world games let you make your own character and just be a traveler/adventurer/mercenary out to make a name for themselves? Why do you always have to play as So-and-so who wants to Complete-Main-Storyline?
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Alexander 'Lex' Williams
Interestingly, more abstract wealth allows the system to do more things that you want it to do in terms of being limited. Let's take an example and we'll make it simple just because we can. Let's assume that the game is about street-level cyberpunk stuff. The most money and resources we expect a single character to have access to is relatively small. Maybe a medium-sized business. A living standard which is comfortable but not exotic. The least money and resources we expect a single character to have access to is borderline poverty, a place to throw a sleeping bag, a couple of changes of clothing, and a toothbrush. We can split this range into an abstract set. For the sake of convenience, let's split it into five. One is the lowest, five is the best. Now we can look at stuff that people might buy and consider how difficult that is. Does someone want to buy a car? Well, that's going to be completely out of reach of somebody living in poverty unless they really work at it and build up some narrative. So it's just not possible to do. Somebody who is living comfortably at the top of our scale could go out and buy a car without thinking about it very much. They can just do it. Someone closer to the middle? Maybe you require a wealth roll, and if they blow it, they're overextended on credit, or just don't have the money to be able to do it. If they make it easily, then they socked that money away and had it ready at hand or have a lender who is interested in helping them out somewhere in between. Well, they can get it, but they're going to have to work for it, maybe do a favor for somebody, maybe go into debt a little bit. Temporarily drop their standard of living. This really works well for narratively focused games because it means that the fiction always ties back in to what you're doing. If you want shopping sprees with the player sitting around going through long lists of equipment, it's not particularly useful. Big piles of equipment with relatively minor stat differences don't work well with abstraction in terms of wealth because the gear itself isn't abstracted. You could certainly make it so, however, if you apply an equal style of abstraction to gear, equipment, other things that players might want to acquire for their characters, then this can be a really useful and thematic method of tracking wealth within the context of play. On the positive side, you don't get characters sitting around parked in a shop for an entire session because their players have analysis paralysis on spending their last two gold, and I consider that a huge plus across the board. Obviously, this can scale further with a relatively broad spectrum of quantization, which is why it's one of my favorite ways to handle this sort of thing.
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Chubby Funster
Chubby Funster@ChubbyFunsterGC·
@squidlord Agreed. The limitations of abstract wealth that you listed encapsulates why I don’t like it
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Chubby Funster
Chubby Funster@ChubbyFunsterGC·
In countless CRPGs, my character is walking around with more wealth than an Emperor. Seems dumb after a while. The only solutions I’ve seen are unrealistically insane equipment prices and making you in charge of a location that becomes a huge money-sink.
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Loz The Eye Wizard
Loz The Eye Wizard@lozofenoch·
@squidlord Reading your first answer is enough to me to declare that you don't understand the topic discussed. So I think we're good.
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Alexander 'Lex' Williams
I want you to hold up for a minute and listen to people who have not played D&D as the only game. They decided that was the one and true only game in their entire existence because 15 years ago there was a strong and vibrant indie story gaming community which was cranking out bangers where railroading was absolutely not something you had to talk about because it was largely impossible. 2010 gave us Apocalypse World, which is very much focused on the characters first and foremost, and the GM's job is to "vomit forth apocrypha" in the pursuit of the conversation which is the play of the game. The GM really can't railroad play in the same sense because they don't really control play. They only control how the world reacts to the player's actions. 2009 gave us Fiasco, which did away with the GM role altogether and was entirely the better for it. It had an extremely focused genre and framework, absolutely. Everyone at the table played a criminal or other ne'er-do-well in the middle of a situation gone terribly wrong. But 80% of that situation was randomly generated from some thematic tables, as were the characters. Railroading was impossible because there was no one holding the tiller on the train. Microscope from 2011 was Ben Robbins dropping out all the stuff that traditional RPGs had come to teach us that were completely unnegotiable. Not only did it do away with the concept of GM, it did away with the connection/attachment between an individual player and an individual character. In fact, tossed out the concept of linear time altogether while he was at it. As a result, a game fell out the other end in which one plays roles most certainly. But those roles are both temporary in the case of individual people and broader in terms of player interaction when it comes to the foci which they pursue across all of the unfolding events. Dungeon World (2012) was as close to classic D&D as the PBTA-inspired were likely to get. It's not my favorite game design in the space, but when it comes to replicating the kitchen sink fantasy tropes within the context of a player-driven story architecture, where the GM again plays the role of arbiter and referee in many cases. If you are familiar with GM'd non-D&D fantasy RPGs, this is likely one of the few that you're aware of. On the other side of the world, philosophically, we have Lady Blackbird, which was published in 2009. It literally inverts the sense of railroaded games in which the situation is set up extremely hard. There's very little variation in where you start and how you start, but then how you play yourself out of that hole is the whole game. Super lightweight mechanics, a strongly framed situation, but beyond the absolute concrete of the basin in which you wake up, what ensues is not really something that can be railroaded. It is just what it is. But even the powerful Powered by the Apocalypse did not come just out of nowhere. Polaris: Chivalric Tragedy at the Utmost North, written by Ben Lehman, provided a GM-less game in which the other players brought the conflict. Again, there can be no way to railroad when there are no tracks. There are merely the situations set up between characters, and there can be no railroading when there is no GM. From 2007, we have In a Wicked Age, where Vincent Baker does his sword and sorcery thing, but drives the entire thing off of four distinct oracles to generate the seeds of the setting in the first place, promoting everyone into direct, brutal conflicts of interest. Then all the GM does is sit back with his hands in the air and helps guide the fallout, not the fight. But if we cast our eyes even further back to the heyday years of 1992, we get Over the Edge, which is a surrealist conspiracy game rooted in an extremely lightweight, high-flexibility, high-speed, low-drag, narrative-first architecture, which used broad phrases to describe its mechanical hooks rather than tightly quantized numbers tied to player-defined traits. It's a game in which you can definitely railroad your characters, but it is simultaneously so easy and so hard, and they have so much power to push back against it that it's never worth the effort. The stories that emerge at the table are not your stories, and they can never be your stories, but must be the stories of the characters that the players are poking around this incredible surrealist universe with. That's where the rubber hits the road. Not too long after that, only a decade, you have Luke Crane's Burning Wheel, which is super dense and is right there at the front of the 2000s Indies boom, but it definitely does not lean toward railroading once you understand how and why the pieces move together as they do. The wants and needs of the character absolutely have more impact into their achievements than whether or not they want to live or die and take actions to that course. Again, not one of my favorite designs, but certainly deeply impactful and deserves better than it ever gets in this kind of analysis. Let's look back at 2004 again, where Vincent Baker gives us one of the best narrative-forward GM light games when he gives us Dogs in the Vineyard. Players are absolute authorities to determine what is right and wrong, and their characters are given the literal narrative power to resolve conflicts as they see fit. Somehow it all comes together to be a moral symphony no matter where they start. You can't railroad someone into it. They have way too much agency in deciding how they want to play things out, and the GM can but watch. 2001 - Sorcerer. The GM is literally remanded to merely reacting to the chaos the players unleash, and they will unleash it because all of their powers are hooked to their greatest failings as people: what they want, why they want it, and what it will cost them, both in mind, body, and spirit, is exactly what plays out at the table. The GM's job is largely to hang big price tags on pretty things. Ten Candles from 2015, again roughly 15 years ago, gave us a zero-prep tragedy. The players at the table have absolute agency in co-authoring their own descent into darkness, with one mechanical certainty: everyone dies at the end. This may be one of the most freeing sessions of play you ever have the pleasure of going through. Kingdom (2013) is another Ben Robbins jam where he decides to take things in a direction that is almost unexpected. Yes, your player is generally sticking with a single character for the entire game, but who that character is within the context of the greater narrative, whether they be: The power that holds the reins of authority, the perspective which can easily foresee the inevitable consequences rushing toward the community, or the touchstone characters that act as the raw emotional nerve of the populace. Then there's the mechanics for when one player wants to subvert and take for their own another player's role. What happens when another player simply wants to abandon theirs for a third? The very underlying nature of the situation changes. There is no railroad strong enough to direct the bounds of these paths. Basically, what I'm saying is that before the article that Alexander Macris wrote in Arbiter of Worlds for The Escapist 15 years ago, we'd already had a lot of these discussions. We'd banged out a dozen different approaches for thoughts on agency, thoughts on GM centrality, thoughts on whether the GM is even required or acts as an active impediment to roleplay of good quality at a table. Not only that, we had shaken out different ways to experiment with it, to find out, to try it in different directions and turn out better games. Alexander may have been the lone voice crying out against railroading story game mentality in the D&D space, but because he didn't understand story gaming mentality, he completely failed to notice that it wasn't the story gamers who were trying to force stories into narratives. That's not what was happening on the story game side of the world, but I suspect there's a lot of cachet in pushing it over there and blaming it on what other people were doing at their table and having a good time with. Because there's no way that people who weren't playing sanctioned D&D could ever be not having the same damn problems the D&D players couldn't shut up about for five minutes. That could never be the case. Obviously, the story gamers were just really frustrated theater kids who wish they could be as cool as the guys arguing over the question of whether "I hit him with my sword" is sufficient narrative to be worthy of an extra advantage or not. We were playing games which were made entirely out of player agency long before you could convince someone to try it out. It would be nice to receive a little respect for the work that went and proved that some of your theories were absolutely correct, but most of them didn't go nearly far enough. I don't expect that to ever happen. You would have to be open to the idea that games beyond D&D not only exist but have fairly strong historical and game theoretic value. They do things that are worth having at the table. But you can't say that, can you? Because you need to be able to tear them down because they're not D&D. Even ACKS2, which is in all ways a laudable effort, is really just a sort of pseudo-D&D once you get under the hood. It's just one with a focus on domain play turned up to 11 and a whole lot of setting information canonized, structured, palletized, packaged, and made at least somewhat ready for domain structured play. I understand what it is and I understand what it's good for. There are days I think I might even play in it if someone offered me a seat at the table, but there's no way in hell I would ever run it. After all, I already own Aria: Canticle of the Monomyth, and that pretty much covers everything in that field I could ever possibly want. You were the lone voice crying out against the D&D story game railroading mentality, but proxying it onto story games because you didn't understand them. You didn't want to understand them. You found them to be a convenient alien to blame the problems in your own backyard on, and you never liked theater kids. That's all. That's all it is. I thank you for what you've done, but truthfully, fuck you for what you've forgotten.
Alexander Macris@archon

When I wrote Arbiter of Worlds for The Escapist 15 years ago, I was almost a lone voice crying out against railroading story-game mentality. Now there is a chorus of heroes singing the gospel of agency, and the song grows louder with every voice that joins!

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Alexander 'Lex' Williams
What makes you think I don't understand the basic principle of diegesis? There's a good chance I've been involved with the hobby longer than you have. I've probably engaged with at least as much pseudo-academic posturing in public regarding the topic as you have. Maybe more. Now, do you want to actually speak to what I wrote as if you were capable of forming an opinion on something you understood, or do you just want to slam by making an accusation without actually supporting it or asking questions for clarification? I'm good either way.
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Loz The Eye Wizard
Loz The Eye Wizard@lozofenoch·
@squidlord Posting wall of text about RPG and Narrative while not understanding the basic principle of diegesis. How come people like you are even interested in hobby to begin with. It's a complete mystery to me.
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Alexander 'Lex' Williams
Is that so you can comfortably discard the things which you don't think are role-playing games, even though they are definitionally games in which players play a role within the context of the experience? Because I've seen that happen a lot over the last several decades as well. It's an exclusionary act, not a categorization act, because categorization would be to suggest that story games, collaborative storytelling (which are two different things, by the way) and deep immersive singular character play are subsets of role-playing game engagement. And that doesn't even start to look at things like troupe-style play from Ars Magica, which violates a number of assumptions. But I don't think a sane member of the hobby would say that Ars Magica is not a role-playing game. This just seems like holding a shovel and looking for a hole.
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Alexander 'Lex' Williams
That's lovely. I mean, it's absolutely not true, but it's lovely. This is a case of you and the original author being obsessed with the idea that all things are one thing. All games are the same game. There's only one way to play. There's only one way to approach a game, and that because you can't imagine something else. It's all you can do and all anyone should do. That's just fucking wrong, not to put too fine a point on it. If the original author believed it was true, it would also apply to DMs that they should be playing characters, not deus ex machina narrators. But that differentiation is literally the difference between a story being pre-planned in the traditional sense and not. It is a story in the same sense that all series of experiences are stories. They become stories when they are retold, when they are recounted. That's not particularly usefully discriminatory for this purpose. The statement that "shit is real" and that it's about immersion is literally false. Those are valid approaches to bring to a game, but they aren't the only valid approaches to bring to a game. Suspension of disbelief is a very flexible thing, and the engagement of players with the other people at the table is also a very flexible thing. Some games are all about immersion, and keeping the levers and buttons of play constrained for the players. But not all games. There's even multiple layers of suspension of disbelief, different types of permeability. You may have a very high level of suspension of disbelief at the individual character action level (for example, you're playing in a wushu setting or in a super high action superhero setting), but you have a much lower threshold for suspension of disbelief at the cultural or situational level (you're playing one of the previously described settings within a historical context, for example). This isn't hard to understand. It just requires that you not believe that all things are one thing and you can go from there. As for immersion requiring that there be no fourth wall breaking, I'm here to tell you that's not a necessary prerequisite. I've played in a lot of narrative-forward games in which player immersion was pretty deep. It just wasn't of the same flavor of those where character immersion was an effect of not having access to levers and buttons of mechanics beyond the immediate scope of the character. This is essentially akin to telling me that superheroes as a character genre are impossible to generate player engagement through immersion in because they're capable of doing things beyond what the everyday people at the table can imagine doing outside. That's obviously inherently foolish and contradicted by the facts, and yet that's what you're presenting me. Get beyond all things are one thing, and you're going to have a much better time of understanding how to do a lot of things and what a lot of people may enjoy that aren't what you enjoy. It'll help you a lot, I promise. Promise.
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Alexander 'Lex' Williams
So you decided not to follow suit? That's a bold strategy, Cotton. Let's see how it turns out. I'm not telling you how to post. I'm just telling you to fuck off. You seem to have strong opinions which have no accordance with reality, and while you really don't matter to me, you decided to drag yourself across my path for some reason which remains unfathomable. I get it. Sometimes you just want to pick a fight online. I've been at this longer than you, kid. Good job. Now go play in the dirt with the other kids while the rest of us have a discussion which actually encapsulates the history of our hobby or talks about things that have come before, and we invite the interaction of people who have something to say, which you weren't. Bit of a shame, but you can try again next time.
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Kodiak
Kodiak@Goblinfights·
@squidlord Dunning-Kruger 40+ year old writes another litany on the virtue of posting properly. More at 11. I write a substack. I read books. The difference is most books actually have something to say with their words.
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Kodiak
Kodiak@Goblinfights·
Brevity is the great intellectual filter of X.
Alexander 'Lex' Williams@squidlord

I want you to hold up for a minute and listen to people who have not played D&D as the only game. They decided that was the one and true only game in their entire existence because 15 years ago there was a strong and vibrant indie story gaming community which was cranking out bangers where railroading was absolutely not something you had to talk about because it was largely impossible. 2010 gave us Apocalypse World, which is very much focused on the characters first and foremost, and the GM's job is to "vomit forth apocrypha" in the pursuit of the conversation which is the play of the game. The GM really can't railroad play in the same sense because they don't really control play. They only control how the world reacts to the player's actions. 2009 gave us Fiasco, which did away with the GM role altogether and was entirely the better for it. It had an extremely focused genre and framework, absolutely. Everyone at the table played a criminal or other ne'er-do-well in the middle of a situation gone terribly wrong. But 80% of that situation was randomly generated from some thematic tables, as were the characters. Railroading was impossible because there was no one holding the tiller on the train. Microscope from 2011 was Ben Robbins dropping out all the stuff that traditional RPGs had come to teach us that were completely unnegotiable. Not only did it do away with the concept of GM, it did away with the connection/attachment between an individual player and an individual character. In fact, tossed out the concept of linear time altogether while he was at it. As a result, a game fell out the other end in which one plays roles most certainly. But those roles are both temporary in the case of individual people and broader in terms of player interaction when it comes to the foci which they pursue across all of the unfolding events. Dungeon World (2012) was as close to classic D&D as the PBTA-inspired were likely to get. It's not my favorite game design in the space, but when it comes to replicating the kitchen sink fantasy tropes within the context of a player-driven story architecture, where the GM again plays the role of arbiter and referee in many cases. If you are familiar with GM'd non-D&D fantasy RPGs, this is likely one of the few that you're aware of. On the other side of the world, philosophically, we have Lady Blackbird, which was published in 2009. It literally inverts the sense of railroaded games in which the situation is set up extremely hard. There's very little variation in where you start and how you start, but then how you play yourself out of that hole is the whole game. Super lightweight mechanics, a strongly framed situation, but beyond the absolute concrete of the basin in which you wake up, what ensues is not really something that can be railroaded. It is just what it is. But even the powerful Powered by the Apocalypse did not come just out of nowhere. Polaris: Chivalric Tragedy at the Utmost North, written by Ben Lehman, provided a GM-less game in which the other players brought the conflict. Again, there can be no way to railroad when there are no tracks. There are merely the situations set up between characters, and there can be no railroading when there is no GM. From 2007, we have In a Wicked Age, where Vincent Baker does his sword and sorcery thing, but drives the entire thing off of four distinct oracles to generate the seeds of the setting in the first place, promoting everyone into direct, brutal conflicts of interest. Then all the GM does is sit back with his hands in the air and helps guide the fallout, not the fight. But if we cast our eyes even further back to the heyday years of 1992, we get Over the Edge, which is a surrealist conspiracy game rooted in an extremely lightweight, high-flexibility, high-speed, low-drag, narrative-first architecture, which used broad phrases to describe its mechanical hooks rather than tightly quantized numbers tied to player-defined traits. It's a game in which you can definitely railroad your characters, but it is simultaneously so easy and so hard, and they have so much power to push back against it that it's never worth the effort. The stories that emerge at the table are not your stories, and they can never be your stories, but must be the stories of the characters that the players are poking around this incredible surrealist universe with. That's where the rubber hits the road. Not too long after that, only a decade, you have Luke Crane's Burning Wheel, which is super dense and is right there at the front of the 2000s Indies boom, but it definitely does not lean toward railroading once you understand how and why the pieces move together as they do. The wants and needs of the character absolutely have more impact into their achievements than whether or not they want to live or die and take actions to that course. Again, not one of my favorite designs, but certainly deeply impactful and deserves better than it ever gets in this kind of analysis. Let's look back at 2004 again, where Vincent Baker gives us one of the best narrative-forward GM light games when he gives us Dogs in the Vineyard. Players are absolute authorities to determine what is right and wrong, and their characters are given the literal narrative power to resolve conflicts as they see fit. Somehow it all comes together to be a moral symphony no matter where they start. You can't railroad someone into it. They have way too much agency in deciding how they want to play things out, and the GM can but watch. 2001 - Sorcerer. The GM is literally remanded to merely reacting to the chaos the players unleash, and they will unleash it because all of their powers are hooked to their greatest failings as people: what they want, why they want it, and what it will cost them, both in mind, body, and spirit, is exactly what plays out at the table. The GM's job is largely to hang big price tags on pretty things. Ten Candles from 2015, again roughly 15 years ago, gave us a zero-prep tragedy. The players at the table have absolute agency in co-authoring their own descent into darkness, with one mechanical certainty: everyone dies at the end. This may be one of the most freeing sessions of play you ever have the pleasure of going through. Kingdom (2013) is another Ben Robbins jam where he decides to take things in a direction that is almost unexpected. Yes, your player is generally sticking with a single character for the entire game, but who that character is within the context of the greater narrative, whether they be: The power that holds the reins of authority, the perspective which can easily foresee the inevitable consequences rushing toward the community, or the touchstone characters that act as the raw emotional nerve of the populace. Then there's the mechanics for when one player wants to subvert and take for their own another player's role. What happens when another player simply wants to abandon theirs for a third? The very underlying nature of the situation changes. There is no railroad strong enough to direct the bounds of these paths. Basically, what I'm saying is that before the article that Alexander Macris wrote in Arbiter of Worlds for The Escapist 15 years ago, we'd already had a lot of these discussions. We'd banged out a dozen different approaches for thoughts on agency, thoughts on GM centrality, thoughts on whether the GM is even required or acts as an active impediment to roleplay of good quality at a table. Not only that, we had shaken out different ways to experiment with it, to find out, to try it in different directions and turn out better games. Alexander may have been the lone voice crying out against railroading story game mentality in the D&D space, but because he didn't understand story gaming mentality, he completely failed to notice that it wasn't the story gamers who were trying to force stories into narratives. That's not what was happening on the story game side of the world, but I suspect there's a lot of cachet in pushing it over there and blaming it on what other people were doing at their table and having a good time with. Because there's no way that people who weren't playing sanctioned D&D could ever be not having the same damn problems the D&D players couldn't shut up about for five minutes. That could never be the case. Obviously, the story gamers were just really frustrated theater kids who wish they could be as cool as the guys arguing over the question of whether "I hit him with my sword" is sufficient narrative to be worthy of an extra advantage or not. We were playing games which were made entirely out of player agency long before you could convince someone to try it out. It would be nice to receive a little respect for the work that went and proved that some of your theories were absolutely correct, but most of them didn't go nearly far enough. I don't expect that to ever happen. You would have to be open to the idea that games beyond D&D not only exist but have fairly strong historical and game theoretic value. They do things that are worth having at the table. But you can't say that, can you? Because you need to be able to tear them down because they're not D&D. Even ACKS2, which is in all ways a laudable effort, is really just a sort of pseudo-D&D once you get under the hood. It's just one with a focus on domain play turned up to 11 and a whole lot of setting information canonized, structured, palletized, packaged, and made at least somewhat ready for domain structured play. I understand what it is and I understand what it's good for. There are days I think I might even play in it if someone offered me a seat at the table, but there's no way in hell I would ever run it. After all, I already own Aria: Canticle of the Monomyth, and that pretty much covers everything in that field I could ever possibly want. You were the lone voice crying out against the D&D story game railroading mentality, but proxying it onto story games because you didn't understand them. You didn't want to understand them. You found them to be a convenient alien to blame the problems in your own backyard on, and you never liked theater kids. That's all. That's all it is. I thank you for what you've done, but truthfully, fuck you for what you've forgotten.

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Alexander 'Lex' Williams
That's not pounding out walls of text; that's gesturing vaguely in the direction of the keyboard, and a wall of text falls out. It's a very low wall. I promise, if you try, you can read all of it. Give it a go. I think you'll be alright. Frankly, if the capability of writing more than 20 words exists, then you should feel free to use it, as I feel free to use it. I have the capacity and the thoughts, and I will leverage them. Perhaps you should generate larger thoughts and then put them down. Maybe you'd have a little more success in terms of conveying your point of view if you did. I will have to continue talking down to you because you seem to want to insist you're beneath me. I would never think of arguing with you when you are so insistent on that point. You think you can tell me how I should communicate with you and others? I'm sorry you can't get their support. I feel for you. It's a terrible place to be. It must suck to be you, but it's the best we can all aspire to.
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Kodiak
Kodiak@Goblinfights·
@squidlord You're the one swearing and pounding out walls of text. You acknowledge the existence of dedicated long-form platforms but insist on subjecting people to walls of text on X. Go ahead, talk down to me, youre the adult in the room after all.
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Alexander 'Lex' Williams
I don't know if you've been around long enough to know, but we've done all those things. While they are lovely, actually getting people to read them is somewhat of a challenge. If you think this is a long-form post for me, you haven't seen the stuff I put on my blog. Also, if your complaint is that I have put too many words on a platform entirely composed of words, and to interact with it you have to read a whole bunch of words, and that's really the entire underlying architecture of the experience—fuck you very much. Don't read them if there are too many words for you. Maybe reading is not an ideal investment for your pleasure. Now you can go out and come back when you've got a better attitude and you can rejoin the rest of the adults. Until then, I guess you're just going to have to get over words.
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Kodiak
Kodiak@Goblinfights·
@squidlord The trick is finding the words to say something in 250 characters or less. We have things like forums, blogs, and books to post in long form. Most accounts have figured this out.
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Alexander 'Lex' Williams
Session zero doesn't even have to be a single session. It may take two or three sessions to really run through your session zero, depending on how many players there are, how complicated the setting is, how complicated the mechanics are, and what needs to be set up in the system. As we know, there are games in which collaboratively building the world is part of "session zero." That adds on to the time that is usefully explored within the session zero context. The specifics aren't as important as the conscious acknowledgment that this is a period of time set aside to make sure everyone's on the same page, both mechanically and narratively, with what's going to happen at the table. It provides you a good basis for proceeding forward. It avoids a whole bunch of things which are less than pleasant but also less than fatal. They're just areas of friction that don't have to happen.
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Nobleshield
Nobleshield@Nobleshield·
@squidlord @crescendogames9 Like when I started my C&C game, it took everyone about 2 hours (interspersed with chitchat) or so, plus a quick break for pizza, to make characters (everyone was new to the system, so had a lot of questions) and then we had an "introduction".
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Alexander 'Lex' Williams
See, you're thinking too limitedly. It's not corporate greed. It is a reasonable assessment of the environment that's been created by people who want to be fed a story, not to create a story. Is there anything wrong with publishing stories? No. There's nothing wrong with giving anybody anything that they want. That's fine. The problem is trying to treat all the things as if they are the same thing and then declaring the tiny little part of it you're in superior to the rest when it really is just something different. Though publishing a story that other people are intended to play out, is different than the image that the same people who create those things want to describe themselves. If you are making scenarios that are expected to guide characters you don't know anything about through a set of situations which they may or may not care about, you are probably not producing something that is really interactive fiction in the same way that someone who is taking characters through a setting but with no clear direction that they want to push them. These are very different things, but a huge chunk of the tabletop hobby keeps pretending that they are. Maybe they don't perceive the difference. That just makes me think less of them as thinkers and people.
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Edge of Fate
Edge of Fate@EdgeOfFateTTRPG·
@squidlord Though I agree with what you're saying. Corporate greed turns stuff to garbage, what's so bad with publishing stories? If people make their own stories with the settings available essentially publishing a story is the same thing.
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Alexander 'Lex' Williams
The irony for me is that I feel exactly this way about traditional tabletop RPG experiences. That long ago, the sandbox was expected because that's what they had. The story wasn't dictated. But then people realized they could make money selling stories to those who were uncomfortable in the sandbox. More people realized that was working out pretty well for people who wanted to keep selling things because there's no end to consumption when you've started depending on others to drip feed it to you. You stop selling settings where the player's stories can take place and you start selling scenarios where the writers' stories take place. Then the publishers realized that was the case and it was all over. It's one of the reasons that the indie-story games side of the world is ultimately more diverse and interesting in terms of architecture. It's hard to make a living on creating an endless parade of scenarios when there's 30 other games that people are interested in and willing to play. A good setting inspires people to bring themselves and their favorite mechanics to a new world. Mechanics which are actually different from what people are used to playing are interesting in and of themselves for people with curiosity. There is an overall environment of exploration. This is not really extant in the traditional RPG side of the house anymore. Every few years they rediscover the idea of sandbox and slap a different name on it. This time it's Braunstein and pretend that it's some sort of miracle revelation either from the ancient past or from the genius of today. Every few years they crank out a new copy of the same old mechanics with a couple of tweaks and maybe integrate something that story gamers were doing a decade ago while the traditional gamers mocked them for it. Warhammer 40K is experiencing that kind of accumulated habitual addiction to received wisdom at a corporate level. My hope is that the players realize there is more than one wargame. Just as I hope that D&D players realize at some point that there is more than one RPG and that they can go and play it. Then they can recapture the sandbox for themselves. They can realize it's been there the whole time and that nothing kept them from it except their habituation. A man can dream.
Chainsword@Chainsword40k

This is true sadly. Some people that joined during 8th Edition or later may not realize that Warhammer 40k was never a story. It was a setting. A place to write your own stories. A stage. There was room for "your guys". Once, the galaxy was vast enough for imagination to thrive. Players could carve their own legends from the void: forgotten crusades, doomed regiments, nameless inquisitors chasing heresy through the dark. It was your Imperium, your chapter, your war. Kitbash was not only optional it was encouraged. People played many narrative campaigns: Tor Megido, Gelida, Thorn Moons Crusade. There was Inq28, which existed entirely to let fans write their own stories in the setting. Now, the universe bends around corporate canon. Every campaign is written to spotlight a mascot character or justify a model release. There is no longer room for "your guys," because 40k is no longer a setting. It has become a story, streamlined, sanitized, and tailored for a modern audience. The sandbox is gone. In its place stands a stage, where only the approved heroes are important, and every narrative beat exists to sell whatever new plastic is next in line. 8th Edition was the moment Games Workshop decided to unsuccessfully try to replicate the Horus Heresy’s success. First came War of the Beast, then Dawn of Fire, both desperate attempts to recreate that same epic spark. Instead of expanding the universe, they tried to repackage it as Horus Heresy 2.0 Electric Boogaloo, complete with the return of the Primarchs. 40k was poisoned during 8th Edition, and the toxin has been spreading ever since, a slow creeping venom that drained the life from the setting while everyone mistook the convulsions for growth. For a time, no one noticed. The rot hid beneath layers of nostalgia and hype. Now the symptoms are impossible to ignore: the unnecessary Primaris lore invented to sell true-scale models, focus on Titus while Ventris is forgotten, characters slain off-screen or brought back to life depending on sales, abandoned plotlines because they do not sell miniatures like the Ynnari, unnecessary retcons such as the Terminus Decree, the Wraithbone retcon, and many others, including female Custodes. All of it stands as proof that the poison has reached the heart. But it does not mean you cannot get creative. Write your own army lore, ignore current canon, and place your narrative wherever on the timeline you want. You can even involve people in your local store, club, or space and make them join. You never know, you may create something far more epic than whatever slop GW currently produces.

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Alexander 'Lex' Williams
Have you checked out the *One-Page Rules: Grimdark Future* (onepagerules.com/games/grimdark…) option? It's fairly close to classic 40K resolution mechanics. If you want to stay with something within shouting distance of that, that would be the place to go. If you're looking for something a little more interesting mechanically, I would vaguely gesture in the direction of Five Parsecs From Home (modiphius.us/collections/fi…) if you are looking for squad-level combat, or Five Parsecs From Home - Tactics if you want a broader combat focus. Those books are beautiful and well laid out. If you're looking for something a little more old school in presentation, then you might want to check out 5150, which is one of my favorite wargame lines still. If you get the edition one back from the most recent, you can pick up as much of it as you want for pretty cheap. Star Army (rebelminispress.com/products/5150-…) might be just enough for what you want to start with, but you can easily expand that to conflicts up to orbital fleet engagements. I love the 40k setting myself, and the minis have always been inspirational one way or another. But we can definitely do better than Games Workshop mechanics if you want.
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Line Doggie
Line Doggie@DoggieLine·
@Ganglosaxonnne In the end, just make Your Dudes. I'm slowly working on Abhuman auxiliaries. (Love the setting and models, not so much the rules...)
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Winter Nebraskan
Winter Nebraskan@Ganglosaxonnne·
Trying to resist wading back into the whole Steel Legion thing. As tempting as it is to keep dunking on people, I don't play 40k any more, and there's enough negativity on here as is.
Winter Nebraskan tweet media
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