Froosh

258 posts

Froosh

Froosh

@Froooooosh

Entrou em Şubat 2017
63 Seguindo19 Seguidores
Froosh
Froosh@Froooooosh·
@acidiclemon2 @LineGutter @TheCartoonLoon The other reward for pressing blue if you're a woman is not being governed by a society full of reds that care more about recovering the infant genocide they incurred than how you'll feel about being forcibly turned into a broodmare.
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The Eggman
The Eggman@TheCartoonLoon·
I mean I am willing to sacrifice myself if it ensures the liklihood that my son would survive As he is like 3. There is a 50 50 chance he will hit blue as he isn't old enough the understand the question
Lady Gravemaster@LadyGravemaster

For anyone still confused; If everyone pushes the red button, everyone survives. Done. If anyone pushes the blue button, they're committing suicide unless they can convince at least half of everyone else to also risk suicide in order for none of them to have to actually do it, but they want to, and now get to, brag they were willing to kill themselves & convince a multitude of others to as well, even though there was a perfectly logical, non-suicidal option the entire time that wouldn't have risked any of the population.

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Froosh
Froosh@Froooooosh·
@drsmithy @TheCartoonLoon I see so many red voters terrified of voting blue because they assume that all of India will vote to sacrifice them. Clearly these people have never heard Indian parents talking about their eldest sons to know how much guaranteed blue you have over there
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drsmithy
drsmithy@drsmithy·
@TheCartoonLoon This is the part they seem to struggle with. You don't need to worry about saving someone on the other side of the planet & they don't need to think about you. You just have to believe that most people have the desire to risk their own lives to help those dearest to them.
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Froosh
Froosh@Froooooosh·
@sbmcnamara @justalexoki Frame perfecting the buttons is by far the strongest argument I've seen to voting red by far.
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sbmcnamara
sbmcnamara@sbmcnamara·
I read the original like a pedant again. The 50%+1 having to press blue for all to survive is clear - so comatose, infants and those who died during the question all count in the denominator The Red pressers only count those who actively pressed the red and they all survive Those who press neither survive at 50%+1 blue, but perish at less But - being pedantic There is no stated limit of only pushing one. The ideal solution is a method to simultaneosly push both blue and red where you are guaranteed to survive, while also contributing to the tally for blue. It also does not state that it needs to be 50%+ of all pushed buttons - just that 50%+ of all people push blue. He later states that phrasing matters - that is how he phrased it
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taoki
taoki@justalexoki·
you cannot reframe the button question. that makes it another question. that's not the button question. the thing about the button question is the way it is framed. that's the button question. there's just the one. you can't change it
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Froosh
Froosh@Froooooosh·
@sbmcnamara @justalexoki I feel like the only edge case that actually has any validity as far as it being unclear are when it comes to the comatose. I see some reds think the obvious answer is blue when including toddlers, while others say their vote doesn't matter so might as well save themselves
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sbmcnamara
sbmcnamara@sbmcnamara·
then all the more reason to pick red. The rules of the game are patently unclear in regards to edge cases, how the question is communicated, what happens to those who press neither button (perhaps because they have no clue what is going on) In that unclear chaos, self preservation is the only sane choice - unless you generally want to die
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Froosh
Froosh@Froooooosh·
@umezawashido @tmsvrb @lymanstoneky Yes, there are plenty of scenarios where I would choose myself dying over my baby. If I die jumping into a river to save my baby, that may result in me drowning and my baby dying slightly later. I’m still not going to watch safely from the riverbank keeping my feet dry
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Lyman Stone 石來民 🦬🦬🦬
Lyman Stone 石來民 🦬🦬🦬@lymanstoneky·
I’d press red. I have four kids. If your reading of the scenario is “we are offering the hypothetical only in English and to 3 day old babies who can’t even push buttons” you’re an idiot. Tye scenario necessarily implies the choosers are limited to people *who can understand the choice*.
Udi Wertheimer@udiWertheimer

almost nobody who has children would press red unless they know for an absolute fact that their kids pressed red if you think there’s even a 5% chance your kids pressed blue, you will risk your life to improve their odds even by a tiny bit to take this a step further most women are probably hard-wired to press blue as a motherly instinct anyway, even if they have no children. so at minimum you have a 25% baseline for blue right there, which completely tips the odds so i think blue actually wins by a landslide if this was the real world and not a social media app for incels in other words humanity always had the biological programming to ensure blue wins

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Froosh
Froosh@Froooooosh·
@umezawashido @tmsvrb @lymanstoneky Same thing that would happen if my baby picked blue and I died picking blue. I would have died trying to maximize the chances of my baby surviving. I would pick blue while hoping my baby picked red
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Wandering Wizard
Wandering Wizard@digitalN0mad49·
@tmsvrb @GaryLaserFren @lymanstoneky It isn’t a valuable thought experiment if it doesn’t track to the real world. The term vote implies agency. Children don’t have agency by law in any country anywhere in the world.
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Froosh
Froosh@Froooooosh·
@PoetSteveWallis @FabricioNakata @JeremiahDJohns The OP of the original hypothetical clarified in a reply that babies would be teleported into their own private room to push one of the two buttons with no outside input or guidance from others
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Steve Wallis
Steve Wallis@PoetSteveWallis·
@FabricioNakata @JeremiahDJohns If you're holding babies up to buttons, you're writing your own hypothetical. That's not in the wording. Answer invalid. What about coma patients? How are they choosing? Again, that's writing your own question, not answering the one posed. Colour blind people? No answer is valid.
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Jeremiah Johnson 🌐
Jeremiah Johnson 🌐@JeremiahDJohns·
The red and blue button folks are talking past each other. Obviously the game-theoretic solution for your own personal safety is red. But some of us have this thing where we care about other people and having a societal Schelling point of blue saves billions of lives, so,
Romy@Romy_Holland

@_Void_Apostle_ @Aella_Girl the hypothetical involves babies smashing buttons. it involves old ladies with dementia. it involves the 250 million illiterate adults in india.

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Froosh
Froosh@Froooooosh·
@PhilGarber5 @udiWertheimer The right course of action depends on how effective the bait of 500 million toddlers is for you personally. Like you said, it’s pretty effective, but if you would still vote red without knowing what your wife and child voted, then it clearly isn’t effective enough
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Zionspilger
Zionspilger@PhilGarber5·
@Froooooosh @udiWertheimer In a zero coordination scenario the right course is to vote red because it’s too great a risk for everyone if blue misses the threshold and there’s no assurance that it will be met without extensive polling and coordination.
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Udi Wertheimer
Udi Wertheimer@udiWertheimer·
almost nobody who has children would press red unless they know for an absolute fact that their kids pressed red if you think there’s even a 5% chance your kids pressed blue, you will risk your life to improve their odds even by a tiny bit to take this a step further most women are probably hard-wired to press blue as a motherly instinct anyway, even if they have no children. so at minimum you have a 25% baseline for blue right there, which completely tips the odds so i think blue actually wins by a landslide if this was the real world and not a social media app for incels in other words humanity always had the biological programming to ensure blue wins
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Froosh
Froosh@Froooooosh·
@PhilGarber5 @udiWertheimer The entire problem is based around everyone’s vote being private so you won’t know whether the other parent picked red or blue though. You’re voting without any coordination
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Zionspilger
Zionspilger@PhilGarber5·
@Froooooosh @udiWertheimer Yes that would make sense if all the kids are at stake but only half are. At least one parent should press red so the surviving kids are not orphaned. There are different orders of sacrifice.
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Froosh
Froosh@Froooooosh·
@PhilGarber5 @udiWertheimer I have a 15 month old and put out two of his play blocks to see what he might choose. Beelined straight for the blue block which makes the decision even easier to accept for me personally. Lot of mothers and fathers in this world who would sacrifice themselves for their kids
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Froosh
Froosh@Froooooosh·
@LincolnMargison @mchwllms5 @CypressDahlia Would you vote red if each blue had to be beaten to death by a randomly chosen red? Red winning 60-40 would give you a 2/3 chance of needing to get your hands dirty. Likely around a 1/5 chance that you would need to personally kill a child. 1/12 that you would match a toddler
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Lincoln Margison - Game Development
Lincoln Margison - Game Development@LincolnMargison·
No because it's also the right and logical choice to make, if you care about your own survival. Blue is just as self fulfilling. An entire group of people that do not need to exist, they could all have chose red. The counter argument is 'some people will choose blue though!'. Why? To save blues.. Self fulfilling. Blues exist to save blues. Reds exist to avoid death. Which one is more valid of a group?
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Maung Thuta
Maung Thuta@CypressDahlia·
Final thought: the argument seems to be that "in the real world" (aka you lost the poll) people are selfish, and therefore you must press red. But... you also pressed red. Every red vote claims they are a victim of other red votes' selfishness. But nobody confronts this idea lol
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Froosh
Froosh@Froooooosh·
@Gnizzll69 @Zombieshoot @CptAncapistan @questionableway There’s no coordination involved so you don’t know what your kids voted. Most parents would choose to pick the option that gave their kids the best chance of surviving. Any child under 5 is essentially a 50/50 with no logic assumed
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just matt
just matt@questionableway·
last thing i’ll say about the button is that it’s pretty strange how few red voters change their position upon learning there is a substantial contingent of blue voters
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Froosh
Froosh@Froooooosh·
@PhilGarber5 @udiWertheimer The kids are kids. Plenty of people understand that roughly 50% of the 1 billion kids under 5 will likely press blue and have no issue pressing red. Up to you whether you consider the deaths of 500 million infants and toddlers to be bait
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Froosh
Froosh@Froooooosh·
@digitalN0mad49 @udiWertheimer There's also nowhere in the world where it's legal to kill billions of innocent people but the button wizard doesn't seem to mind that either lol. Anyway, OP clarified that infants and toddlers are all voting in a room by themselves with no input from others.
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Wandering Wizard
Wandering Wizard@digitalN0mad49·
@udiWertheimer And specifically, there is nowhere in the world where children are legally allowed to vote. It’s a reasonable assumption that children aren’t voting. I’m not going to cave on that one
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Froosh
Froosh@Froooooosh·
@PhilGarber5 @udiWertheimer It's the complete opposite. The OP of the question even clarified that infants and toddlers would get teleported to a room and have to push a button with no guidance or input from anyone else. There's no coordination possible according to the OP
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Zionspilger
Zionspilger@PhilGarber5·
@udiWertheimer No, the question is structured to invite coordination by its parameters. No one is going to choose blue irl without feeling out others’ intentions, just as they are in these discussions.
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Dimetapp Codeswitch Duello
Dimetapp Codeswitch Duello@banisheddime·
@Stretchedwiener Ok. Challenge accepted. Here's the EXACT SAME exercise, without your suicidal empathy activated by Blue being presented as the main character, which you can't see past Press Red, win $100 Press Blue, win $100 if 50% also press blue What moron is pressing blue?
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Wetterschneider
Wetterschneider@Stretchedwiener·
If you want to propose a different version of the thought experiment - write it up. This one, the one we're talking about - "Everyone" votes. Not just people over certain age, not just people who understand the question, not a subset. Everyone. You don't vote for your kids. You don't even get to tell them how to vote. They vote. Everyone votes. And plenty of adults "vote" by choosing randomly, in real elections. Because they don't have a strong grasp of what they are voting for. They don't deserve to die, regardless of the callous insulting opinion so of "red choosers" who want to cull "low IQs". As a parent - you make choices that risks their lives without their consent more often than you want to know.
Christian Ohnimus@ChrisOhnimus

@Stretchedwiener @waitbutwhy If true, I push Blue. But it doesn't specify how edge cases are handled. "Vote" implies intention and not random assignment. For example, if I have to vote for my kids (or other dependents) am I obligated to choose Red, since Blue risks their lives without their consent?

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Froosh
Froosh@Froooooosh·
@Gnizzll69 @Zombieshoot @CptAncapistan @questionableway Idk why everyone thinks India would be so biased towards red. The average Indian family unit is much larger and closer than the average American family unit. If you’ve ever talked to any Indian parents about their eldest sons, you know they’re voting whatever it takes for them
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TeeKray
TeeKray@Gnizzll69·
@Zombieshoot @CptAncapistan @questionableway That's my main focus. They also say Cooperation to get blue votes will happen, that's not how it goes though. Gun to head, instant decision, over 70% are going red. Hell, 80% of India is gonna vote red so blue is already at 1 billion down
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Froosh
Froosh@Froooooosh·
@pulyus @whittomd @BobMurphyEcon Because “everyone” includes children (and the OP clarified that they did intend for babies to be teleported in their own room free from any influence and push whatever button they felt like)
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Chris Johnson
Chris Johnson@pulyus·
@whittomd @BobMurphyEcon Why would a child be pushing a button? In this stupid hypothetical that everybody wants to change to be even a dumber hypothetical, why would a child ever be given the ability to push their own button?
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Robert P. Murphy
Robert P. Murphy@BobMurphyEcon·
To show this isn’t altruism versus selfishness: suppose parents are required to push the button on behalf of their children who are 5 or younger. Which button do you push on their behalf?
Tim Urban@waitbutwhy

Everyone in the world has to take a private vote by pressing a red or blue button. If more than 50% of people press the blue button, everyone survives. If less than 50% of people press the blue button, only people who pressed the red button survive. Which button would you press?

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@acidiclemon2 @LineGutter @TheCartoonLoon @drsmithy @sbmcnamara @justalexoki @umezawashido @tmsvrb