Tom Thumb

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Tom Thumb

Tom Thumb

@tomth0mb

شامل ہوئے Ocak 2022
1 فالونگ22 فالوورز
Tom Thumb
Tom Thumb@tomth0mb·
@neontaster @TheLastNeocon How does the EC prevent the two metaphorical wolves from eating the sheep? Who are the two wolves? Who is the sheep? If we added, say, two more sheep to this hypo, wouldn’t the EC then give the two wolves outsized influence on the question of what to have for dinner?
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Noam Blum
Noam Blum@neontaster·
@TheLastNeocon Welcome to social media, where people typically shorten complex posts into more digestable shorter statements. He didn't lay out his entire argument in detail. He overviewed it with an analogy.
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Noam Blum
Noam Blum@neontaster·
This literally is an actual argument. You might not care for it, but the only one hand waving here is James.
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Tom Thumb
Tom Thumb@tomth0mb·
@Chaplain_kaz @AlexanderPayton These are notes taken contemporaneous with convention debate fyi, not some distant scholarship or speculation about his views.
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Tom Thumb
Tom Thumb@tomth0mb·
@Chaplain_kaz @AlexanderPayton Madison was as pro-slavery as any Virginian, but still wanted direct popular vote for prez. He actually admitted this would weaken slavers’ political standing as opposed to EC, but encouraged them to “make the sacrifice” for a better, fairer union.
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Payton Alexander
Payton Alexander@AlexanderPayton·
“There's no good civic argument for the electoral college,” but then immediately “it was arguably necessary to ensure the ratification of the Constitution.” That is a good civic argument! It was necessary to secure the buy in of smaller states, and probably continues to be.
James Surowiecki@JamesSurowiecki

There's no good civic argument for the electoral college. It was arguably necessary to ensure the ratification of the Constitution, but it's an anti-democratic device that gives some American citizens far more voting power than others, based purely on where they live.

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Tom Thumb
Tom Thumb@tomth0mb·
@Mark_Wylie001 @AlexanderPayton Of course, he had to concede many edits in the debate. Here he is explaining one change he did not like. He also called lamented the that the EC debate happened so late into convention, giving the south a “degree of the hurrying influence produced by fatigue and impatience.”
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Tom Thumb
Tom Thumb@tomth0mb·
@goatpurple1 @AlexanderPayton I am just saying that “original meaning” and “framer’s intent” is tied inextricably to the slavers’ bargain. If you find modern benefits to the EC—or think slavery was good—that’s your business. But there is no high-minded, civic virtue to mined from our founders for it
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Tom Thumb
Tom Thumb@tomth0mb·
@Mark_Wylie001 @AlexanderPayton He wrote the Virginia plan (basically arts I-III) and the bill of rights. He was also the main “dude with the pen” at the convention. He took contemporaneous notes of all of this.
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Tom Thumb
Tom Thumb@tomth0mb·
@MichaelFKane If u don’t get it, it’s bc house seat total used the 3/5 compromise. The EC, in turn, used house seat totals + 2 to set number of electors. Everyone in the room at the convention understood the EC’s main political purpose was to also let south benefit from slave pop in prez vote
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Tom Thumb
Tom Thumb@tomth0mb·
@MichaelFKane You a big fan of the 3/5ths compromise so southern slavers would ratify the constitution? Because James Madison, author of the Constitution, was quite honest that this was the EC’s main function at the time of the founding. It arguably should have been abolished with 14A.
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Tom Thumb
Tom Thumb@tomth0mb·
@2aHistory So the EC is, at bottom, founded in opposition not just to direct democracy, but the guiding principles of republican governance, going back to Rome: representative government by the social consent, express or implied, of those from whom you derive your political authority.
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Tom Thumb
Tom Thumb@tomth0mb·
@2aHistory If you don’t follow Madison’s reasoning here, it’s because the electoral college sets elector total by # of house seats + 2. The 3/5 compromise, in turn, boosted southern states’ house seat total by using slave pop even as those slaves couldn’t vote or benefit from constitution
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2A History
2A History@2aHistory·
The USA is not a democracy, and was designed not to be a democracy. The country likely wouldn't have formed if the small states had been told they would be ruled by election results from larger states. Some people slept thru history classes.
James Surowiecki@JamesSurowiecki

There's no good civic argument for the electoral college. It was arguably necessary to ensure the ratification of the Constitution, but it's an anti-democratic device that gives some American citizens far more voting power than others, based purely on where they live.

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Tom Thumb
Tom Thumb@tomth0mb·
@AlexanderPayton FYI this is because states’ elector total is based on number of house seats + 2. Madison has also lamented the rushed discussion and tacked-on nature of the EC, as debate over the method of prez election did not arise until very, very late into the convention and was sped thru
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Tom Thumb
Tom Thumb@tomth0mb·
@AlexanderPayton The Electoral College was part of the broader slavers’ bargain—basically a way to port over the 3/5ths compromise from house seat apportionment to prez elections to ensure southern ratification. At least that’s what the literal author of the Constitution says:
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Tom Thumb
Tom Thumb@tomth0mb·
@skep_observer It has to be political operator Kavanaugh, whose willingness to show that side waxes and wanes with the current political climate. Remember the SC itself injected the question of section 2’s constitutionality into Callais, telling Louisiana to brief an argument it had not made.
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skep._
skep._@skep_observer·
What’s the logic behind the Supreme Court deciding in Allen v Milligan that Alabama must draw another majority minority seat to 3 years later turning around and potentially gutting VRA? They changed their minds?
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Tom Thumb
Tom Thumb@tomth0mb·
@schwarz This is bc states’ number of electors was set by # of house seats + 2, with the 3/5 compromise falsely boosting southern states house apportionment by counting slaves otherwise outside the body politic. So the electoral college ported the 3/5 compromise into prez elections too.
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Tom Thumb
Tom Thumb@tomth0mb·
@schwarz It is so funny that the literal author of the constitution was so honest about the morally dubious, slaver-bargaining nature of the electoral college—disconnected from any civic virtue, democratic or republican (small r)—only for so many people to read in a noble purpose.
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Tom Thumb
Tom Thumb@tomth0mb·
@jack_whitcomb_ So many of the modern args—prevents mob rule, ensures regional parity for its own sake, etc—are reverse engineered. Hamilton said some stuff about it helping to avoid tyranny, but you have to remember he was a grotesque anti-democratic outlier, even for his own era.
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Tom Thumb
Tom Thumb@tomth0mb·
@jack_whitcomb_ James Madison, the author of the constitution, was quite honest about the Electoral College’s political rationale: it helped secure southern ratification by indirectly porting over the effect of the 3/5ths compromise in house seat apportionment to prez elections:
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Jack Whitcomb
Jack Whitcomb@jack_whitcomb_·
Since we're being dumb about the electoral college again, some reminders - "boosts small states" doesn't really do that - "stops cities from ruling rural areas" doesn't really do that - "this is what we agreed to" winner take all isn't in the Constitution
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دریافت کریں

@neontaster @TheLastNeocon @Chaplain_kaz @AlexanderPayton @goatpurple1 @Mark_Wylie001 @MichaelFKane @2aHistory