Bunkei

Interestingly enough, the game describes them as 'so-called' arbiters of fate, which seems to suggest that there's more to this than what the game is telling us. I also noticed that there's a line where it says 'they are connected to all the threads of time and space ...' Whenever the phrase 'time and space' or similar is used, it's always in reference to the Lifestream. This makes sense because in the Lifestream, space and time has no meaning (which is why you see certain events like Platefall being discussed in the terrier world after Zack arrives in Midgar even though they would've taken place several weeks apart in the original continuity).

@AlphaISMRadio @lukeclarckson @hashtagclerith I just came across this comment randomly, and I just wanted to say that yogachara doesn't explain everything that's been shown in the remakes. Namely, the whispers in Remake whose combat data explicitly define them as beings that "protect the future that gave shape to it".

ReTrilogy has built a premise around changing—defying—fate. Some need a story that concludes with accepting that fate cannot be changed, but I hope for a story of rebellion, of defiance and a will so powerful it can change the fate of the stars. I hope for hope.

@TylorHepnerArt I'll PAY you to do this. This would be my wallpaper on my phone, PC, iPad, hell I'll put it in my bathroom.

@AlphaISMRadio This is getting me too excited lol 😂🔥🙌 imagine a whole new AC moveset with it

Okay, I need your help. With the inevitable FFVII Part 3 reveal, I’m planning a bunch of new art!✨ I’ve got a lot of concepts planned, but I want to know, what in pt. 3 are YOU most excited about that you would like to see me draw?✨ Don’t hold back ideas, now is the time!🙏

@RetroMoviesDB READY TO FORM VOLTRON!

Name a past cartoon modern kids haven't heard of...

@Ff7Theories I couldn't agree more; I implore ALL FF7R fans to enjoy the mystery because when it's over ... it's over. I don't want it to end...

I'm very much not settled on believing that any current theory is truth, but I would love to see more friendly discussions and debates that make me think, rather than hurling of personal insults that leave me heated.

I see some people on every side of the theory wars saying things like "It's so obvious...", "Imagine believing...", "What's the point..." The one thing that seems clear to me is that the devs have been purposefully unclear. They *want* us to think and debate, rather than agree.

@FFVIINovels If we didn't see a clip of Sephiroth at the Edge of Creation, then I would say "no" but the tie-in can't just stop there...

Yes or no, do you think we’ll get a young Sephiroth sequence during FFVII Remake part 3?

@StygianSis Mannnn ... It feels funny to read these old theories I once held. This one's not that long ago. I was as delusional as Cloud was...

@AlphaISMRadio Sorry my last message to you, not gonna bother you again lol. But you should read up on what the dev said about Gaia theory and I think it might explain a lot of things. x.com/StygianSis/sta…

@ProfNoctis @_subtxt_ SubTxT, I strongly believe your analysis of FF7R in reverse is a huge clue as to understanding the story. Let me ask a question: Why is Cloud not among the survivors in the Terrier timeline? We'd probably answer: 'Oh, he's with Zack' but ...

@ffSteeD27 *plays Toy Story's "You got a friend in me" and nods his head*

I was so happy to see people who fundamentally disagree with my opinions and those of @AlphaISMRadio tune in to this, this made it such an open and valuable conversation I feel. If you like FFVII Remake, I want to hear you and talk to you about it, regardless of your opinion.

@CloudyWolf80 @ffSteeD27 @thesushmitasen Everyone knows that in the original game, after Cloud's cell is mysteriously unlocked and the party began to make their escape, they eventually find President Shinra already dead, impaled by Sephiroth's masamune. In Remake, this has been changed so the party find President Shinra dangling off the cliff after being thrown through a window (judging by the broken glass and guard rail). After Barrett reluctantly rescues him and the President runs to his desk to retrieve a gun, the party witnesses his death by Sephiroth's hand.... or did they? Right after the President dies, Barrett attempts to shoot Sephiroth but the Whispers block him from doing so, and right before Sephiroth impales him, a "glitch" effect can be seen/heard......... 🤔

Ever since that childhood accident with Tifa, he believes that if he becomes strong like Sephiroth, he should be able to save everyone he cares about. His entire story from OG to AC revolves around him dealing with the guilt that he couldn't. Instead of addressing it, he hides the truth by reconstructing his memories so the people who died that he cares about somehow survive. When you look at Remake's ending, it's all there: Zack is alive, Biggs is alive, the Sector 7 residents are alive. Unfortunately, Jenova will weaponize this and use it against Cloud. Angeal said every man should have dreams, but Cloud has taken it to the extreme to the point where he doesn't know what's fact and what's fiction. I agree with @Mcreation8 that this is happening while he's in the Lifestream. The rift in the sky gives it away.

@Mcreation86 Interesting though I can't say I agree tbh. I guess I'd have to know what exactly is Cloud trying to change?

The way they hide the truth of what's going on with Sephiroth, Aerith, and Zack in plain sight, right in Chapter 1... An Aerith line too often overlooked🌸 "Dunno about "alive" so much as...around?" Cloud interprets Sephiroth as being alive because he can see and interact with him, and him seeing Sephiroth die has been blocked out by Jenova (hint Aerith hint, review Chapter 14). Aerith understands that life and death are not so black and white, that the line between the two can be very blurred at times. It's also interesting that in the same scene, Aerith feels a pain in her back right where Sephiroth would've st-bbed her. The game gives you so many hints along the way that you can catch up on upon replay. #Spoilers

@Rossfield953 @FFVIINovels To be fair, they said it was an unknown journey not an unknown destination.

@FFVIINovels I just know that we were promised a unknown journey and the journey was very known Rebirth mediocre remake and coward sequel

I can’t wait for a resurgence in FFVII Rebirth discourse when the game releases on Switch 2…

@SKTheKingYT You made my day man .. I had NO IDEA they tried to punk Bernie. If the cop had said "this is revenge for calling your nephew a sissy" and walked off, I would have died a happy man.

The ending to Remake presents a mystery that will have us talking for the next 7 years. How appropriate! We hear terms like "Defying fate (or destiny)", "Destiny's crossroads", etc. So obviously, what all this exactly entails is a mystery. However, I have one comment about what we see at the end of Remake. If "Fate" was truly about changing the OG story then why is the first vision we see is Zack's last stand? Not only that, but after all the battles have concluded, the party is not taken back to where they were on the expressway, they're taken to the outskirts of Midgar where Zack died. The last scene is Zack carrying Cloud with 'Hollow' being played with the camera panning upwards to the sky while it's raining. Now from the vantage point of a new player, here's what they can glean from these images: - There's a guy who has the same sword as Cloud who gets him back to Midgar. - Given the fact that Cloud now has the sword would indicate that this happened somewhere in the past. - Something obviously happened to the first guy after they've reached Midgar. - Aerith seems to know him. - Why doesn't Cloud remember him? And why does the mention of his name causes him discomfort? ... but wait. I thought we were talking about defying fate?? How does any of this relate to that? My conclusion: we're grossly over-complicating the story, but that's intentional. This is about Cloud ... no more, no less.

@ffSteeD27 They're protecting destiny, plain and simple. Post Remake, I believe Sephiroth controls the bulk (black whispers) while Aerith/the planet/the lifestream are controlling the rest (white whispers)

I have a question which I think summarizes the tension around the two sequel/remake poles in FF7R. If the visions the party saw already happened, why didn't any of them remember it? Is there a mechanism that made them forget it? (Obvious FF8 joke aside lol).

@ffSteeD27 @JonnyAtma He also did one of my fav tracks from the SNES days ... "Meridian Dance" from Secret of Mana.

The cover is by the legendary @JonnyAtma youtube.com/watch?v=rcEuKh…

I'm so hyped for ONE SONG in Part 3 that I figured I might as well mash it up with Rebirth: and there's a specific boss fight where it could have been played. Yall know what I'm talking about right? Here is... Rebirth of a God! + Bonus edit of those epic multiverse fights.

This is a great question; and my answer is ... symbolism. Now this isn't new and I take it most people are slowly warming up to the idea that much of what's going on in the Terrier world is symbolic. When you hear the newscast, there are so many inconsistencies compared to what we know that occurred in the OG story. For instance, there were no tornadoes (at this juncture of the story). The newscast mentions the platefall of Sector 7, but had Zack lived, this wouldn't have happened until several weeks later. Still, in the Beagle world, not everything should be taken literal either. I don't think the Whispers literally "resurrected" Barret (which would have been something that has never occurred ever in FF7). However, I took it as a symbol that the Whispers were simply correcting the memories that were being distorted. The same is true of Wedge; I don't believe the Whispers actually "killed" him, but just correcting the memories so he dies in the same manner as he did in the original. Now, with Aerith. I don't believe she's actually "touching" (or connecting with) Zack. As she says in both OG and Rebirth, she's looking for the real Cloud and there she's able to discern his Zack persona. Back in Remake, after we were first shown the vision of Zack during his last stand (and the scene transitions back to the party), the camera zooms away from Aerith, not Cloud. I believe Aerith is literally trying to help Cloud heal from the Lifestream, and there, she understands that the source of that fracture was Zack's death. The Terrier world and the Beagle world are linked. What we see internalized in Cloud's mind is given form in the terrier world. We remember how Aerith is unconscious while Zack is waiting for her to wake up, but isn't that precisely what Cloud is deluding himself into thinking when he goes back for Aerith's body? He holds her up and tells Aerith to "wake up". These are both referring to the same event. At the beginning of Rebirth, we see Zack finding Aerith and holding her body while crying just as we see at the TFC with Cloud. We even see her white materia bounce on the ground in slow motion just like it does at the altar. I believe she finally does connect with the real Cloud in chapter 14 as @ffSteeD27 relates in the video and gives him the White Materia in which she tells him that it's the key to saving himself and the world.

Interesting, again I get what you’re saying, its all plausible (and im no expert on the Jung/Yogacara stuff thats for sure), but again how do you reckon with Aerith being able to feel Zacks touch through the lifestream when he holds her hand in his world, as an example, or Aerith guiding him with flowers and so on, if he isn’t real in Rebirth

A lot has been said on Jung/FF7R but @WarriorsofHype did the best job at it imo. We watched it and then applied Jung's theory to Cloud, and the result is this: the weird Chapter 14 dream stuff finally makes sense once you apply the Jungian lens to it: youtu.be/0Q6kQ74DeL4

It's funny. I used to believe the same thing! After all, it was Zack (not Cloud) who answered Lazard's question that his goal in life is to be a hero. To be honest, I am not sure if we ever saw the real Zack anywhere in Rebirth. However, I do believe it was him that we see in Intermission's ending. I believe that Zack being depicted as Cloud's persona fits on so many levels. It's a thematic inversion -- In FF7, the second-biggest plot twist was that it was Cloud cosplaying as Zack whereas in the Remake trilogy it might be Zack cosplaying as Cloud. Mr. Nojima said that his inspiration for the Remake story is Carl Jung's theory of the collective unconscious and Yogacara. The theory of the collective unconscious is basically that there are archetypes (or symbols) that are common to the human experience, particularly in dreams. There's the shadow, the hero, the healer, etc. which maps perfectly to the characters we see in FF7. Keeping that in mind, it's apparent that Zack is the "hero" archetype that Cloud aspires to. His inclusion in FF7 Rebirth reminds me of what's said about him in the advertisement for Crisis Core Reunion: "His legacy gave birth to FF7". So no, I don't believe Zack has been resurrected or anything of that sort or even him somehow traversing worlds in the Lifestream. This is about how much he meant to Cloud. After all, the beginning of AC and the end of AC pretty much takes place at his grave. I don't believe there's a need to extend his story past his death. His arc in Crisis Core is sufficient. Now, that doesn't mean we won't ever see the real Zack at some point (if we haven't already). I believe he will; but I think his legacy is what is at the heart of the Remake trilogy, not the person.

Hm... I see your point, but I just kinda think that when Denzel asks if this is somebodies grave at the end of AC and Cloud responds to him by saying no this is where a hero began his journey, he's actually talking about Zack, especially when we then cut to the buster sword in the church. If he's talking about himself It just feels a little weird to me that he would refer to himself in that way to Denzel based on his question. If he is talking about Zack it would have to mean there is a real Zack in Rebirth, having a journey, and that's not just a fragment of Zack's persona within Cloud that we are seeing, and its something that Cloud becomes aware of, possibly in Part 3. On top of that, it might also mean looking at the "Unknown journey will continue" in a different light, because we never got to see Zack's journey in FF7 all the way up until ACC, we obviously just assumed he was dead and that was it, but with Remake showing us more than that, we literally are seeing an unknown journey with whatever Zack is doing currently. I'm not saying this is the truth or anything of course, and even reading some of it feels like a takes a little shine off of Cloud's front and center position, because the journey is his, and it is unknown. At the same time I do feel like Zack is actually there, as himself, we just don't know *exactly* where there is (beyond what you would broadly say is likely the lifestream). I don't think the Zack we're playing as is just a representation of a fragment inside Cloud, as SteeD seems to allude to (I think, sorry if i'm misquouting/misattributing here), maybe some versions are, but other versions are also clearly felt by Aerith in the game through the lifestream, so idk. Either way, was some intresting stuff on the stream

Mr. Nojima, are you a fan of X Japan? Are you familiar with their song, "Art of Life"?? It really speaks of a certain protagonist. Here is an excerpt of the lyrics: "Close my eyes, rose breathes I can hear .. of love and sadness ... melt in my heart" "Dry my tears, wipe my bloody face ... I wanna hear me living my life outside my mind" "Dreams can make me mad ... I can't LEAVE my dream ... I can't stop myself ..." "Don't know what I am ... what lies are truth what true are lies?"

ほう……

This ties directly to the end of Remake. When they were talking about defying "Fate", it wasn't Aerith's or even the Planet's fate (well ... not directly). It's Cloud's! That is the reason why the first vision you see is Zack's last stand, where everything began; where the mental fracture starts. We're witnessing Cloud's "unknown journey" to the healing we ultimately see at the very end of Advent Children.

I think maybe the one scene i'd love to get some Ultimania knowledge on would be that Dream/Church Scene, so many things i'd love more information on. Late here but been watching quite a bit of this video and can maybe articulate my thoughts better tomorrow, but enjoyed the talking points especially on 14. Agree with some of the stuff, the Zack symbolism for example is way too obvious with the dog, poster, etc. Definitely intrigued by the choices and the back and forth, jung etc, wondering what you think it means in relation to Cloud saying "This is where a hero started his journey" on Zacks grave in ACC

@DrClownPhD "All is fair ... "

Instead what if the party saw something similar to the vision that was seen earlier in the VR? Now THAT makes much more sense and Nanaki's response would be appropriate.

There's been much debate about what Nanaki said at the end of Remake, namely: "A glimpse of tomorrow if we fail today". I always thought his response was odd; why would a vision of his cubs prompt him to make such an ominous statement? Answer: I think the game pulled a sleight of hand. Shortly before Nanaki makes that statement, we don't see what HE sees, the game shows us what CLOUD sees. We might *assume* everyone saw the same thing, but what if that assumption turns out to be false? Continues =>