P.R. Neider-Ball 🐦‍🔥

@freemarketeer1 @ShaneRaynor And baptists too. I just had to ignore them because I ran out of space 🤣

@freemarketeer1 @ShaneRaynor Facts I think that’s changing though. Anglicans, Methodists, Lutherans and Presbyterians are all in the process of recovering their historic confessional and sacramental roots, and that is pushing back hard against the reductionism that emptied Protestant faith of its substance

On Sunday, during his sermon, our pastor briefly pushed back on the idea of “once saved, always saved” and may have raised an eyebrow or two. Even some Methodists are surprised to learn that Methodism doesn’t teach this doctrine. GMC Catechism Q. #64: Can we lose our salvation? A. Yes. We believe, although we have experienced regeneration, it is possible to depart from grace and fall into sin.

@bob96259487927 @freemarketeer1 @swamthetiber25 Right but that’s true of any evidence relationship. The connection doesn’t collapse the distinction.

I understand your distinction. You’re saying acceptance is grounded in Christ alone, while transformation follows from real faith. But in practice, those actions are used to identify whether that faith is real. That’s the tension — because even if they’re not the basis of acceptance, they’re still tied to whether someone actually has the faith that receives it.

I think one of the bigger differences between Catholicism/Orthodoxy and evangelicalism/protestantism. We aren’t righteous in the sight of God because He covers our sin in the way flowers might cover a heap of dung- as made popular in the common evangelical view of penal substitutionary atonement. We ARE made righteous, not just covered over.

@ReformedCaio What analogy, if any, would you consider strong?

If you are a Calvinist using the, "God is the author of a novel, and He wrote Himself into the story," argument to try and explain the relationship between His eternal decree and divine providence... stop it. It's a bad analogy. It doesn't help the Reformed position and only leads to further confusion, misunderstanding, and misrepresentation. The Bible is not bereft of examples of God doing exactly what the confessions affirm He does; using the "author of a book" analogy is totally unnecessary and actually creates more problems for the Reformed position.

@bob96259487927 @freemarketeer1 @swamthetiber25 that question doesn’t change what grounds the marriage itself.

@bob96259487927 @freemarketeer1 @swamthetiber25 Yes, that’s the structure exactly. But notice the logical order. Think of marriage, love evidences a real marriage, but love doesn’t make you married. The marriage covenant does. If love is entirely absent you’d rightly question whether the marriage is real, but

@bob96259487927 @freemarketeer1 @swamthetiber25 Idk if I would say the evidence is “necessary”, but faith is more than just mere intellectual assent…it’s living union with Christ. And union with Christ by its very nature produces transformation.

@Methodist_Prime @freemarketeer1 @swamthetiber25 I see. If the absence of those actions are a “red flag,” then they are necessary as evidence of genuine faith. What makes that evidence necessary?

@bob96259487927 @freemarketeer1 @swamthetiber25 Its a red flag, a faith that produces no cooperation with grace, no engagement with the means, no works of mercy/love, is a faith that needs examining. Not because those things earn acceptance in any way, but because genuine faith is never inert, it’s living and dynamic.

@Methodist_Prime @freemarketeer1 @swamthetiber25 You mentioned prayer, sacraments, and works of mercy as part of cooperation. What does it mean when those are largely absent from a person’s life?

@method_ministry @Alex_Clary1 @_DHDS @NickQuient And it was a fantastic episode!

@Methodist_Prime @Alex_Clary1 @_DHDS @NickQuient Been doing that, youtu.be/TCUZGsue6mg?si…

Looking for new theology podcasts to check out! I’ve got caught up on all of my usuals. Drop your recs below!

@bob96259487927 @freemarketeer1 @swamthetiber25 from that…prayer, the sacraments, works of mercy. The disposition, though, makes the actions possible. What difference does that make if not acceptance? Everything, because the goal was never just only forgiveness. It’s restoring what sin corrupted.

@bob96259487927 @freemarketeer1 @swamthetiber25 Oh, my bad! I should’ve clarified lol Yes, cooperation is what a person actually does in response to grace but it’s a bit more. It’s a disposition, prevenient grace restores your capacity to respond, so you can receive rather than resist what God is doing. Then actions that flow

@bob96259487927 @freemarketeer1 @swamthetiber25 renovating work does. That’s what cooperation with grace does. By not resisting what the Spirit work, by actively engaging the means of grace, grace is restoring what sin corrupted…perfecting love and affections towards God and by that our neighbor.

@bob96259487927 @freemarketeer1 @swamthetiber25 The difference the change makes is everything. The goal isn’t just forgiveness, it’s restoration. Sin didn’t just change a status before God, it damaged what we are…our capacity to love, to know God, to reflect His image. Forgiveness alone doesn’t fix that. The Spirit’s

@KameronMazurek @BibleFeedOnline I’ll have to check that out!

@Methodist_Prime @BibleFeedOnline My cousin has this podcast

@DPGBehler So like water/spirit at the same moment? So would you consider it one baptism still or two separate since some people wait on baptism?

@Methodist_Prime I think Spirit and water baptism are two parts of the same event, ideally, and that we’ve separated them over time by making the emersion into water something to do later on rather than at conversion.

“Water baptism is a work of God” has always struck me as a lazy copout when used to avoid the charge of water baptism being a work necessary for salvation.

@Alex_Clary1 @method_ministry @_DHDS @NickQuient That would be awesome, 100% agree. Something long form and incredibly deep!

@Methodist_Prime @method_ministry @_DHDS @NickQuient I feel like I keep repeating myself but again, someone please make a sacramentalist/classic Wesleyan podcast that boldly affirms and leans into the sacramental background of Wesley’s Anglican heritage for us liturgical Methodists

@just_keep_read @DPGBehler So the spirit is literal but the fire is metaphorical? What makes you think it’s a separate baptism?

@Methodist_Prime @DPGBehler John the Baptist said that Jesus came to baptize with Spirit and fire.

@_DHDS Shew so many 🤣 I usually have them going all day so I have too many to list some of my usuals are @method_ministry, @NickQuient, R.T Mullins, The Kirkwood Center, PlainSpoken with Jeffrey Rickman, Testify, just to name a few lol

@Methodist_Prime What are your usuals?

@bob96259487927 @freemarketeer1 @swamthetiber25 An imperfect analogy: Think of adoption, the legal declaration is complete on the court date. However the adoptee still has formation that follows to conform to the family’s “likeness”, that formation is real and necessary but it doesn’t re-litigate the adoption.

@bob96259487927 @freemarketeer1 @swamthetiber25 I’m not sure I ever said they were “completely unrelated”, if I did I misspoke. My point is that the transformation itself isn’t the ground of acceptance. The ground of acceptance is Christ alone, received by faith. Transformation is what grace does to the one who is justified.