Cave Excavator مُؤَدِّب

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Cave Excavator مُؤَدِّب

Cave Excavator مُؤَدِّب

@TheCaveBeneath

meh

The Cave Beneath the Cave Katılım Nisan 2025
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Cave Excavator مُؤَدِّب
Cave Excavator مُؤَدِّب@TheCaveBeneath·
Hugh Nibley disagrees. The threat is always from within. Pointing fingers at others provides a nice cloak for corrupting doctrines and precepts while gaining the praise of the world at the expense of Joseph's teachings. Or perhaps something much more sinister is afoot in Mormondom.
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Fidget@bomunhinged

“Religion faces the greatest threat from three groups: feminists, homosexuals and intellectuals.” — President Boyd K. Packer

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Cave Excavator مُؤَدِّب
One prophecy by one man to rule them all!
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Cave Excavator مُؤَدِّب@TheCaveBeneath

Method does indeed matter, for the reigning methodological approach in the studies of the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament is the historical-critical method (often shorthand for the historicist approach, though I consider it a useful switch scholars use to deflect from the firestorm that ensued from historicism in the early 20th century). How exactly does this method approach its subject matter? It reconstructs original texts, through the various means you posited along with several others, by prioritizing explanations that reduce the prophets to nothing more than cultural products of their immediate historical context. (Such a method emerged and diffused from the writings of Vico, Herder, and Hegel.) This prioritization operates within a broader set of assumptions that often predetermine conclusions about authorship before the real investigation has even begun. If you rule out predictive prophecy a priori (as most, if not all, historicists do), then any future-referential material is deemed suspect and relegated to fantasy. If scholars operate from the premise that prophets and their utterances represent the hindsight of later generations concocting nice tales, then they are operating under the notion that the impossibility of prophecy is a foregone conclusion. Is that really research? Isaiah, the singular man, cannot exist in the minds of historicist scholars, who posit that prophets cannot possibly have foreknowledge of future events, such as the rise of Cyrus, a king who eventually permitted the Jews to return to Jerusalem. Embedded within this methodology is an implicit, though at times explicit, skepticism toward unified prophetic authorship by one man offering diverse, far-reaching visions: often known as the cosmic vision of all. That is, it privileges historical reconstruction and views its subjects, prophets or whomever, as lesser intelligent beings than the scholar pontificating about them. Historicists rarely allow the prophet’s text to speak for itself as a unified whole.

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Cave Excavator مُؤَدِّب
Method does indeed matter, for the reigning methodological approach in the studies of the Hebrew Bible/Old Testament is the historical-critical method (often shorthand for the historicist approach, though I consider it a useful switch scholars use to deflect from the firestorm that ensued from historicism in the early 20th century). How exactly does this method approach its subject matter? It reconstructs original texts, through the various means you posited along with several others, by prioritizing explanations that reduce the prophets to nothing more than cultural products of their immediate historical context. (Such a method emerged and diffused from the writings of Vico, Herder, and Hegel.) This prioritization operates within a broader set of assumptions that often predetermine conclusions about authorship before the real investigation has even begun. If you rule out predictive prophecy a priori (as most, if not all, historicists do), then any future-referential material is deemed suspect and relegated to fantasy. If scholars operate from the premise that prophets and their utterances represent the hindsight of later generations concocting nice tales, then they are operating under the notion that the impossibility of prophecy is a foregone conclusion. Is that really research? Isaiah, the singular man, cannot exist in the minds of historicist scholars, who posit that prophets cannot possibly have foreknowledge of future events, such as the rise of Cyrus, a king who eventually permitted the Jews to return to Jerusalem. Embedded within this methodology is an implicit, though at times explicit, skepticism toward unified prophetic authorship by one man offering diverse, far-reaching visions: often known as the cosmic vision of all. That is, it privileges historical reconstruction and views its subjects, prophets or whomever, as lesser intelligent beings than the scholar pontificating about them. Historicists rarely allow the prophet’s text to speak for itself as a unified whole.
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John Tani
John Tani@JohnnyTani3·
I’d grant part of that. Scholars are human. Echo chambers happen. Institutions have incentives. But that’s exactly why method matters. The historical method can be challenged by manuscripts, archaeology, linguistics, dating, source criticism, and explanatory power. It contains the possibility of being wrong. That’s falsifiability. And this isn’t just secular scholars quoting secular scholars. Plenty of believing scholars accept Deutero-Isaiah, later editorial layers, and complex authorship models because the evidence points that direction. So the real question isn’t whether scholars can form consensus. The question is whether a method has a mechanism for correction. Historical scholarship does. Dogma protects the conclusion before the evidence gets a vote.
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Jonathan Plumb
Jonathan Plumb@jonathanplumb·
Isaiah. Was. Literally. Dead. A. Century. Before. Lehi. Left. Jerusalem. And. They. Took. The. Brass. Plates. With. The. Original. Recorded. Record. With. Them. Forcing. Jews. To. Re-record. It. Later. Stacker literally knows NOTHING about how ancient Israel operated. They literally had scholars memorize every word of scripture. They memorized every word of the Books of Moses and more. This is what they did. It’s WELL DOCUMENTED. So when Lehi took the brass plates, it wasn’t hard for them to re-record the words of Isaiah. It’s also worth noting they didn’t take ANYTHING into exile in Babylon with them. They were taken, given no opportunity to pack, and brought over to Babylon. So they couldn’t have even preserved existing records but would have had to recreate them all. But notice the game of Telephone. The Isaiah we have in the Bible is almost identical to the Book of Mormon, with minor wording differences. Literally anyone with at least a peanut for a brain doesn’t fall for the horse shit stacker falls for. This is just lazy learning. It’s exactly what he accuses others of: only affirming preconceived conclusions. He’s worse than Dan McClellan.
Stacker@stackerco

Deutero Isaiah is the open and shut evidence that the Book of Mormon is not historical. There is no way certain chapters of Isaiah could have been on the brass plates. It’s really time members talked about the book as a transformational/spiritual but not a historical.

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Cave Excavator مُؤَدِّب
@stackerco @jonathanplumb The qualification "all" is a hasty generalization; not "all" scholars conclude this. Sure, the majority of scholars perhaps conclude this, as scholarship tends to create an echo chamber once they all begin to quote each other almost ad nauseam.
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Stacker
Stacker@stackerco·
@jonathanplumb Oof, Plumb. Sit down. You just proved with crystal clarity that you have zero idea what Deutero-Isaiah actually is or why it’s one of the most rock-solid conclusions in all of biblical scholarship.
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Cave Excavator مُؤَدِّب
Then again, it may be that the private philosopher refrains from entering onto the public square due to the complete corruption of the people, which came about by the stagnancy introduced by the dogmas of theologians. So, he either remains private or abandons the city set on destroying the quest of philosophy, preserving it for that generation in which the philosopher-king will arise. Despite this, Alfarabi considers the private philosopher an incomplete philosopher.
Cave Excavator مُؤَدِّب@TheCaveBeneath

The philosopher-king risks all for the collective well-being of man; the private philosopher risks nothing and remains amidst his books and perhaps can be perceived as a coward. Alfarabi pulls no punches!

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Cave Excavator مُؤَدِّب
The philosopher-king risks all for the collective well-being of man; the private philosopher risks nothing and remains amidst his books and perhaps can be perceived as a coward. Alfarabi pulls no punches!
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Cave Excavator مُؤَدِّب
I’m not sure if we’ve discussed this before, but I would go with Robert Alter’s “The David Story.” Following the footnotes closely is extremely helpful, though there are key elements of the tribal dynamics Alter seems to omit from his commentary. And that’s perhaps why it’s necessary to spend a lot of time reading and rereading the Book of Judges to acquire a firmer grasp on the political dynamics in the transition from Judges to the Samuel account. Sure, there’s much political philosophy to glean from this account; however, if one is not steeped in the messianic tradition, much will be missed.
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Hunter V. McClure
Hunter V. McClure@greenloeb·
@GregMcBrayer3 Curious if you have any suggestions on this, since (if I recall correctly) you did a Hertog group on Samuel last year. (Doesn’t have to be a full commentary—genuinely good essays/articles would also be nice!)
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Hunter V. McClure
Hunter V. McClure@greenloeb·
Anyone have recommendations on secondary literature for Samuel/Kings? Leading a reading group on them this summer with the aim of treating them as political treatises and tragic dramas. Looking for something along the lines of Leon Kass’ book on Genesis or Bob Sacks’ on Job.
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Cave Excavator مُؤَدِّب
@DChadwickAuthor @KelseaJ112 I indeed see what you see, though it may be more marcocosmic in scope. The mother of harlots is about her business, using certain courtiers as front men, while the real power moves in the background.
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Dave Chadwick - Author
Dave Chadwick - Author@DChadwickAuthor·
The Daily Wire specifically wants to alienate Mormons.
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Capturing Christianity
Capturing Christianity@CapturingChrist·
Did you know that an angel appeared to Joseph Smith 3 times commanding him to engage in polygamy? The final visit, the angel wielded a sword and said Joseph would be struck down if he didn't do it. Why haven't you heard this? Because Joseph Smith never told the public about it.
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Sean Gois
Sean Gois@seangois·
@flatearthrespct Great answer. I will now take a 7 year vow of silence to contemplate this…
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Sean Gois
Sean Gois@seangois·
What is it about the 80’s?
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Cave Excavator مُؤَدِّب
Alfarabi's philosophy has certain aspects that lead me to believe that he not only seeks a thoroughgoing return to Plato, and perhaps less so to Aristotle, but also makes emendations that make plain, and dare I say perfect, what the "Divine Plato" was aiming at. I'm starting to wonder why he's called the Second Master to Aristotle when he should in fact be coequal with Plato.
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Cave Excavator مُؤَدِّب
Cave Excavator مُؤَدِّب@TheCaveBeneath·
I really don't get it! There are aspects of Alfarabi that Muhsin Mahdi alludes to, and if one reads Alfarabi closely, those allusions are not mere figments of Mahdi's imagination; they are there and hardly, if ever, acknowledged by other Straussians.
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Cave Excavator مُؤَدِّب
Cave Excavator مُؤَدِّب@TheCaveBeneath·
I do like your positive outlook pertaining to the situation, but there are too many allusions from Joseph Smith and bold assertions from Brigham Young that leadership will be an issue, so much so that even Christ plainly proclaims that the Gospel will be stripped from the Gentiles (one cannot point to others being the Gentiles mentioned in the scriptures, for it clearly implies those who have already received it).
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Josh
Josh@alwayshasbeen3·
Fully agree. It will happen, and be more severe. The saints in these latter days will be persecuted and tested like never before. It's going to happen. This is essentially Satan's last chance. That doesn't mean we rest on our laurels, but church leadership won't be the issue. God has promised us that. The truth wont ever be removed again. They'll be isolated issues, but the church will survive.
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In Defense of Family | Megan
In Defense of Family | Megan@defense_of_fam·
Yesterday, I was feeling frustrated with the amount of LDS content out there that doesn't fully align with the true teachings of the gospel. In answer to my questions and prayers, the Lord led me to a talk given by Ezra Taft Benson at BYU many years ago. Perhaps some of this will be helpful to you as well. 🧵
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Cave Excavator مُؤَدِّب
Cave Excavator مُؤَدِّب@TheCaveBeneath·
If, as Joseph Smith asserted, the Book of Mormon is the most correct book on earth, and I believe it is, then the same patterns that corrupted the Nephite Church will persist in our day, since Mormon, the chief compiler of the Book of Mormon, patterned his prophecies off of Isaiah, who was and still is known for his dualistic prophecies, not to mention that Christ himself commanded readers of the Book of Mormon to search the words of Isaiah (3 Nephi 23:1-3). This means what happened in their day will indeed occur again in ours. Also, many of Joseph Smith's dreams and the parables he gives in certain sections of the Doctrine and Covenants allude to such.
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Josh
Josh@alwayshasbeen3·
@TheCaveBeneath @defense_of_fam Even if this is true, it is not a serious issue with the church. You make it out to seem as if this is an absolute truth, and at best, its a niche problem, if its a problem at all.
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Cave Excavator مُؤَدِّب
Cave Excavator مُؤَدِّب@TheCaveBeneath·
@alwayshasbeen3 @defense_of_fam Simply because you haven't experienced or witnessed such does not mean it has not happened. Hugh Nibley experienced it often, not merely from his congregation but also from the highest reaches of the Church.
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Cave Excavator مُؤَدِّب
Cave Excavator مُؤَدِّب@TheCaveBeneath·
I speak of people fawning over leaders and their words when we should have an inordinate desire to sift and absorb the scripture to a level to match that of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young; rather, we settle for far less and pin our faith on the sleeves of others, which darkens the mind as we let others do the thing for us. I'm also speaking about what stifles this. As soon as an individual has a burning passion for the scriptures and evinces such within church classes, said person is immediately perceived as a threat by the local leadership who begin to prance around this person like wolves. This person doesn't spout the long-parroted platitudes vomited at the pulpit. And because of this, he is labeled a disturber of the peace. So, he must be whispered out of influence by the manipulation of opinions. That is what I'm talking about.
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Cave Excavator مُؤَدِّب
Cave Excavator مُؤَدِّب@TheCaveBeneath·
@defense_of_fam @BlackBlessedLDS But what if, like the Book of Mormon, Isaiah, and Micah testify, the very charlatans fill the highest seats of the Church and actually publish said decrees like this to cover their tracks, for they know full well that the masses will hang on ever of word.
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