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I discuss because it helps me work things out in my head. Sometimes I’m wrong and that’s okay. And banter is always acceptable.
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Brian Holman
697 posts
Brian Holman
@brianjholman
Proud of my LDS heritage 🐝 Seeking God ☦️ Studying Finnish 🇫🇮 Supporting Liberty 🇺🇸
Centerville, UT Katılım Aralık 2013
324 Takip Edilen92 Takipçiler
@stackerco Just my opinion- because of feminization of the church. Men leave for better options. Women enjoy the feminization for a while, but eventually go looking for the men.
Plus the internet has made it impossible for LDS leaders to control the narrative; LDS apologists are messy.
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He is not using language of the specific worldview he’s critiquing. Then he’s using assumptions not held by the worldview he’s critiquing to draw conclusions not held by the worldview.
For example, claiming the only way out “is to say God intended [the Fall] for a higher purpose” is an LDS assumption, not creedal Christian. I gave another, more creedal, way out: finite creatures can’t comprehend the infinite God. To imply we can know His intentions borrows again from LDS, believing God is just like us and our reasoning, only perfected/exalted.
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@brianjholman @Allen_Newberry @ThoughtfulSaint He’s not questioning Gondor trying to replace God with his own intellect. He’s questioning the creedal Christian view/interpretation of God. It’s not the same thing.
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Question for non LDS folks.
Why would God put a poison tree in the middle of his perfect garden knowing that Adam and Eve would partake?
The only way out of this is to say God intended it for some higher purpose.
Which implies his initial creation was not perfect but could be improved upon.
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@HardRedPills @ThoughtfulSaint You read my first paragraph stating we can’t know everything God knows and why He does certain things, and your takeaway was that I’m claiming to know everything? Huh
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@brianjholman @ThoughtfulSaint Oh look. Another schmuck on the Internet that thinks he has everything figured out.
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I could have wrongly assumed he’s address non-LDS Christians, since I’m not aware of him ever debating with non-Christians.
I’m coming from an ‘LDS to agnostic, moving to EO’ worldview and believe that we are created beings that cannot comprehend the uncreated God. This includes His reasons and decisions. I’m pretty certain this is the position held by most non-LDS Christians. Accepting that He is ineffable and incomprehensible is sufficient for me. Beyond that, it’s probably us projecting our own traits onto God.
Once I accept God as omnipotent, omniscient, and all-loving (while admitting I can’t fully comprehend any of those), the rest is just God being God. It’s not my place to question why He’s done something, imo. He commanded Adam and Eve to fast from a particular tree. Why? I don’t know and won’t pretend to. They chose to sin and lost the ability to walk with God in the garden.
I’m not sure ex-nihilo has anything to do with the specific scenario.
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Whose "worldview" are you referencing? Jacob is addressing this question to "non LDS folk," presumably who believe in the Garden of Eden narrative. This is a large data set consisting of a wide array of beliefs and conceptions of God, not one monolithic worldview.
To get an idea of where you are coming from, please explain your worldview. Are you Christian? Do you believe in creation ex-nihilo? Do you believe God knew at the moment of creation the precise future actions of each of his "creatures?"
Thank you for considering these questions and engaging in dialogue. It helps me workout my own beliefs as we do.
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@John_Stone_ @MattTestifies I have to give him the benefit of the doubt that he doesn’t actually know what the Eucharist is. I didn’t 6 months ago.
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@MattTestifies The Eucharist is not the gospel of Jesus Christ?
“He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.”
John 6:56
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The devil does not need people to hate Jesus if he can settle for them accepting a counterfeit.
Papal supremacy, infant baptism, and the Eucharist are not the gospel of Jesus Christ. They are the debris of apostasy dressed up as holy tradition.
Christ did not reform that system.
He restored what it lost.
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Because the prophets and apostles won’t engage in defense of LDS theology, yet the members want something more concrete to hold onto now than “burning in the bosom”, “the prophet said so”, and “the scriptures say so”.
Internet has made it difficult for them to not put things on their shelves.
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@ContraHeresy I don't understand how mormons look to him to defend their faith.
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Then you’ll know that your logic being grounded in a self-existent reality separate from God (LDS theology) requires that you then ground that self-existent reality in something else to explain transcendental categories, such as logic and knowledge. Otherwise, you’re subject to the pitfalls of materialism.
👆🏼 that’s the best @JayDyer impression I’ve got
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@surskitmaxxing @stackerco I didn’t it couldn’t be challenged. What i am saying is that challenging it on logical or historical grounds requires philosophy.
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This is why you need philosophy folks:
The claim that only empirically testable statements are meaningful is itself empirically *untestable* nor analytic. So by its own rule, it collapses.
stacker@stackerco
“You can’t disprove it with deductive certainty” Obviously you can’t disprove something unfalsifiable. And then you shift the burden of proof onto the critic for failing to refute what you won’t let be testable in the first place 😂 I’m so tired of bullsh!t apologetics.
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@ThoughtfulSaint I didn’t say you were questioning God. I basically said we can’t understand God, and that (from the non-LDS perspective, which is who you asked) LDS project their finite intellect onto an infinite being.
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I’m not claiming Jacob’s questioning God. It’s actually worse. I’m saying that Jacob is trying to replace God with his own intellect (and that the majority of LDS do as well).
Plus, he’s mixing paradigms, framing his question from outside the worldview he’s critiquing:
A person that believes God is omnipotent and omniscient can also trust He is in charge because there is no second option like a self-existent reality external to god like in LDS. Asking why makes no sense within the worldview. Why? Because God is God… all-knowing, all-powerful, all-loving.
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@brianjholman @ThoughtfulSaint Street Preacher: (shouting) "God hates little children"
Passerby: “If God is full of love, how could he hate innocent little children?”
Street Preacher: (shouting louder) “How dare you question God!!”
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@EMSKowallis @ThoughtfulSaint I never claimed to. My first paragraph was entirely anti “speak for God”.
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@pimomormon Have you tried just calling yourself a Mormon apologist?
I’m sure you can find LDS quotes and passages to back up pretty much any doctrinal position you want to take.
Then they’ll revere you.
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“Why do you stay PIMO? Why not just leave?”
They ask.
It’s simple. I stay to piss people like Edward here off.
Edward K. Watson@Eddie1968K
Your hypothetical is absolutely impossible on every level, for it goes directly at the heart of the Gospel, and DOZENS of passages in the Book of Mormon and the D&C. So, yes, it is a false framing for you know it can NEVER happen. You might as well say the prophet tells us to murder or rape, because it is that level of impossibility. But we’re talking about you, a man without principles and integrity who refuses to tell his loved ones that he no longer believes. So, I don’t expect to see honesty from you.
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@MoondogGord @Lfromthenorth No, jotkut amerikkalaiset voi osata suomea.. ehkä huonosti, mutta osaan vähän.
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@Lfromthenorth As someone who is half-Hungarian, I celebrate the absolute impenetrability of the Finno-Ugric languages.
I know how to say "Mother, buy me a dog" in Hungarian, sort of.
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Finns are not Slavic. We're Uralic, together with Estonians and Hungarians, and some smaller, less-known, Asian ethnic groups.
I wont accept this slander 😠
Declaration of Memes@LibertyCappy
Which one are you?
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Whoa….
Good work fellas!
InteractivePolls@IAPolls2022
GALLUP POLL: 42% of men aged 18-29 now say religion is "very important" in their lives — a sharp jump from just 28% in 2022-2023. Monthly religious attendance among young men has climbed to 40% (up from 33%), the highest level in over a decade. news.gallup.com/poll/708410/yo…
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Regardless of your feelings about the war in Iran… this is a valid question.
Why didn’t the Pope specifically call out Iran when they butchered thousands of its own people earlier this year?
pbs.org/newshour/amp/w…
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I think we’re mostly on the same page. You had said they could not truly love God without free will. I don’t know that’s accurate or if it’s a motive people falsely tie to the fall.
They had free will prior to the fall, so they were probably capable of truly loving. If that’s the case, I think the story also shows someone could truly love God and still fall into sin… which is why we’re supposed to leave judging another person’s heart to God.
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@brianjholman @CertainSpeaks @ThoughtfulSaint They did have free will. Whether you believe the story is literal or symbolic, the tree symbolizes their free will, & taking upon themselves to be the arbiters of what is good & evil in their own eyes, rather than what is good & evil according to God & respecting His Natural Law
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@ThoughtfulSaint @RobertWeidner11 Sure He could. Who cares why he did? Does your obedience to Him hinge on if you agree why He did what He did?
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@RobertWeidner11 So he intentionally made an imperfect creation when he could have made it perfect?
Why would he do that?
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@ChirpnChickadee @CertainSpeaks @ThoughtfulSaint Doesn’t the commandment to not eat presuppose that free will already existed?
If they hadn’t already had free will, the commandment would have been unnecessary.
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@CertainSpeaks @ThoughtfulSaint Yep, Adam & Eve couldn’t truly love without free will. When they chose to sin against God, disorder, sin & death entered the world. There are always negative consequences to disobeying God, & acting against the Natural Law He established.
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@ThoughtfulSaint @CertainSpeaks Making all things joy and happiness for all forever sounds like someone else’s plan in the pre-existence👺
Could He? Sure. Did He? Doesn’t seem so from our perspective. From His eternal perspective? Maybe He did.
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@CertainSpeaks Could God have made it Good for them to eat the fruit? Could he make all things joy and happiness for all forever?
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