John Giovanni

9.1K posts

John Giovanni

John Giovanni

@john_giovanni_

Bitcoin Puritan. Bitcoin Maximalist. Bitcoin Zug.

Katılım Mart 2017
204 Takip Edilen1.3K Takipçiler
John Giovanni
John Giovanni@john_giovanni_·
@Rob1Ham @soapminer1 And if you sell with this method and bip110 suddenly gets hashrate to become the longest chain, "Corecoin" gets wiped out and you lose everything for pennies. This doesn't happen the opposite way, bip110coin never gets wiped out.
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Rob Hamilton
Rob Hamilton@Rob1Ham·
You get coins on each side of the chain split. Assuming both: 1. They have necessary hashrate on the minority side to move it forward 2. There is economic demand for the minority chain bitcoin You could sell the minority fork, BUT you’ll want to attach a large op return to prevent a tx being replayed on both sides of the chain.
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SoapMiner
SoapMiner@soapminer1·
Can someone explain what happens to my Bitcoin in cold storage, if there is a fork between BIP110, and Core please.
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John Giovanni
John Giovanni@john_giovanni_·
Are the current rules on consensus preference? Were segwit and taproot subjective changes to that consensus? Then the "changes" now are no different (undoing the problems introduced by segwit and taproot). Either bip110 changes consensus or it doesn't, but labeling it invalid before it happens is nonsensical.
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AA ⚡️
AA ⚡️@AAStack·
Here my last thought on BIP-110. BIP-110 isn’t Bitcoin’s immune response. It’s a policy preference. Bitcoin doesn’t distinguish between “monetary” and “non-monetary” transactions at the consensus level. If a transaction follows the rules and pays the fee, it’s valid Bitcoin. Calling certain uses “spam” is subjective. One person’s spam is another person’s legitimate use case. Nodes don’t decide what Bitcoin is unilaterally either. Bitcoin is defined by the consensus rules accepted by the economic majority. Relay policy can influence network behavior, but it doesn’t redefine Bitcoin. If users are willing to pay for blockspace and miners are willing to include those transactions, that’s the fee market working as designed not an attack on Bitcoin. See you in September 🫡⚡️
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John Giovanni
John Giovanni@john_giovanni_·
Were segwit and taproot subjective changes? If not, then bip110 is also not a subjective change. Bip110 is not censorship or ruining neutrality of transactions. It's enforcing many of the already implemented protocol rules that are already followed when a transaction is sent or block is mined.
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Flying Raven ⚡️🇺🇸
BIP 110 is a bad idea: It imposes temporary consensus limits on data (anti-Ordinals spam filter) but violates Bitcoin’s neutrality, is easily bypassed, risks chain splits with ~0.3% miner support, and sets a dangerous precedent for subjective rule changes. Neutrality + market fees > activist forks.
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John Giovanni
John Giovanni@john_giovanni_·
@mes066 @saylor You didn't read or understand what I wrote. I addressed what the change is, and why it's either been done before so it's not a valid argument of dangerous precedent, or it isn't a dangerous precedent at all.
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duke
duke@mes066·
@john_giovanni_ @saylor Core's OP_RETURN change was just mempool policy, anyone could override it. BIP-110 is a consensus soft fork that invalidates currently valid txs. That's the dangerous precedent you're downplaying.
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Michael Saylor
Michael Saylor@saylor·
There are 110 things more dangerous to Bitcoin than spam. BIP 110 turns a spam dispute into a consensus change that would invalidate some currently valid, fee-paying transactions. That precedent is the danger. We should save our energy for threats that really matter. $BTC
Adam Back@adam3us

On the filter fork topic. I don't usually have time, but this morning listened to one of the twitter spaces from earlier in the week, with some well meaning relative bitcoin newcomers, that humanized them, and their concerns and thoughts for why they thought that made it logical to support 110. My feeling after listening, is if these are the people with #110 in their handles, I'm sad to see them about to fork off and get disillusioned without understanding why bitcoin rejected 110 robustly. So here's a more empathetic, constructive higher level version of explaining why not. I hope it's high-level and first-principles enough that everyone can follow. They seem to want to understand what makes people tick, and are suspicious of intent. So, if someone asked me why is Bitcoin important and what is it, I'd say my (personal) mission and hope for bitcoin is to build the cypherpunk future, that "Snow Crash" was a blueprint, and work backwards from there. Bitcoin I hope leads to fully free markets via bearer unseizable, hard mathematically dependable money. Not everyone is comfortable with that level of freedom, but that's my view. And at this point, I believe that surprisingly, even now many governments have come to understand and value bitcoin's gold-like mathematical assurance, a positive development. Others may have milder views than myself, but still like hard censorship resistant money. Because of motive suspicion, if it's not obvious: I hate spam with a passion, that's how I came to design hashcash while researching decentralized bearer money with others, and running nodes in privacy related cypherpunk p2p networks nearly three decades ago. People seem upset about the default op return policy change in bitcoin. I will just assert, there are extremely robust and simple reasons for bitcoin changing default relay policy, and most just didn't do their research, so don't know what those are, or maybe not technical enough to fully understand though there have been 1000s of posts trying to explain in various simplified ways. So that lack of understanding lends itself to shared build-up of false narratives. So here's my back-to-basics higher level explanation. The decentralization needed to create cypherpunk money has implications a: side effect of decentralization is that you can't impose your views on others. The very decentralization mechanism that helps that, is working against what BIP 110 wants, which at it's most basic is a quest to police other people. I understand supporters don't see their intent like that, but introspect deeper. You can modify your software, but not anyone else's. Another critical and incredibly robust technical bitcoin immune system is bitcoin can't have people who don't understand technology basics insist on eroding security, decentralization robustness and core properties. That would end badly, fast, and so people will fight you on that. So the message is Bitcoin respectfully says "no" to what you want. Sorry, and bitcoiners do genuinely understand and empathize that you mean well, have high level thoughts that make emotional sense, and articulate sensible bitcoin-defensive high level ideas, but they are not grounded and without you seeing it, the way you propose to achieve your ideas, hard-conflict with free cypherpunk permissionless money. My advice is to listen to more experienced people who understand the system and why it works the way it does, to whatever detail you want to understand the grounded reasons for why this is the implication of decentralization and cypherpunk money. I guarantee you the developer and protocol ecosystem shares and exceeds your views on bearer hard money (and dislike of spam). You may not agree with individual developers choices, views, way of expressing themselves etc, BUT you also need to understand the IETF-like decentralized technical consensus process creates a protective change resistance, that is highly effective at protecting bitcoin mission. The implication of which is no developer can change anything without technical consensus from hundreds of other developers and protocol observers who are pedantic and extremely knowledgeable clever people who won't let any unaddressed technical question past. The protective change resistance is robust and decentralized in an amplifying way because of this technical consensus. And the many highly technical mainline developers' cypherpunk mission mindsets are probably far more determined than you can even handle on clarity of understanding and views about freedoms on permissionless networks, as many of you are probably still subconsciously inured by the matrix, where they have transcended that, and grew up immersed in it decades ago. They think natively in this space, while you are just grappling with the surface. Many wont have internalized or have the experience to know how this internet physics works, where there is no policeman, no policy authority, just mathematics, free market and hard money. That has implications for your views also, unfortunately. Now the tough pill, which is unfortunately true: If you won't listen to reason, educate yourself, learn, the same radical freedom applies to you: your permissionless recourse is to club together and create a fork. But bitcoin won't be joining it. (With respect and no sleight intended.) Please rejoin bitcoin now, or later if you're not convinced and need to experience 110 forking off and fizzling for yourself to start that journey of introspecting and learning. It would be sad if bitcoin lost people disillusioned due to simple lack of understanding of what's going on there, we're all trying to defend bitcoin and keep it on mission. Including btw the 110 technical promoters, just they wandered off plot somehow. Join the cypherpunks on bitcoin, come cypherpunk summer🌞 in a few weeks.

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Breadman
Breadman@BTCBreadMan·
I have decided after much soul searching that I want to become a BIP-110 supporter. What is the easiest and least painful way to lose the 20 or so IQ points needed to make this happen?
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John Giovanni
John Giovanni@john_giovanni_·
@brucefenton If there was economic possibilities, it wouldn't be with the risk anyway. Maybe you get pennies at the risk of legacy chain wipeout if 110 became the longest chain.
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Bruce Fenton
Bruce Fenton@brucefenton·
BIP 110 has such a low chance of success that it’s difficult to make an economic bet on it since the market is so thin. There will likely not only not be a meaningful or relevant fork, the fork will be so economically insignificant that there won’t be a trading opportunity. If this makes you angry, take it out on the markets.
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John Giovanni retweetledi
Softfork Mechanic #BIP-110
Softfork Mechanic #BIP-110@GrassFedBitcoin·
Hi, So BIP110 isn't anti-spam. It identifies >83 byte OP_RETURNs and the usage of OP_IF in taproot specifically as threats that go beyond mere spam having become sanctioned as *official methods of file storage in Bitcoin*. This happened as a result of Core 30 removing a filter in the midst of a discussion that was centered around the less consequential defaults for relay policy, which remains where conversations about spam actually belong. Bitcoin is *not* a file storage platform, and if it is allowed to become one it seems inevitable to most that it will eventually be used for the worst kind of media given its unique ability to "force" everyone to store the media in perpetuity whilst having the option to do so anonymously. Those who do not understand this scream "fear mongering" or simply do not understand that Bitcoin only works if it is decentralized and that deviating from a monetary mandate to arbitrary data storage means the death of decentralization. This has all been carefully delineated amidst an incredibly noisy, emotionally charged conversation which is all the result of Bitcoin not having a corporate governance structure which is a feature, not a bug. You can participate in the discussion in an informed way, and if you were to do so, it would be greatly appreciated given your overwhelming influence. But it appears that so far, you have yet to even understand the motivation for the BIP. The spam filter/default relay policy conversation never ended and continues the minute BIP110 activates and the JPG spammers all find some new approach. But Bitcoin will no longer be vulnerable to the specific issue BIP110 targets.
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John Giovanni
John Giovanni@john_giovanni_·
@LukeDashjr @dtvelectronics Is just mining with your node enough to be conisdered using it? Or sending or receiving at some defined interval? Or must be both?
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Luke Dashjr
Luke Dashjr@LukeDashjr·
@dtvelectronics That you just have to run it and nothing else. Actually using your node is what matters.
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DTV Electronics
DTV Electronics@dtvelectronics·
What's the biggest misconception people have about running a Bitcoin node?
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John Giovanni
John Giovanni@john_giovanni_·
@DMND_Sv2 @CPepetricio But you arent paying the cost of the miner who wants to signal though, right? So if they want to signal, then their only choice will be to leave DMND?
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DMND
DMND@DMND_Sv2·
@CPepetricio A pool's first job is protecting its miners revenue. Every hash spent on the wrong chain is money miners burned for nothing.
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DMND
DMND@DMND_Sv2·
At DMND, miners can signal any bit, for any upgrade. Signaling on our pool happens at the individual miner level through Stratum V2 Job Declaration. This is not a permission we grant — it is built into the protocol, and we will not police it. However, signaling and chain selection are separate things. DMND is a Bitcoin mining pool. We mine on the chain with the most accumulated proof-of-work under the consensus rules of the economic majority. We will not direct hashrate to a minority chain that requires signaling, unless industry-wide consensus for the upgrade has already been established. In August, nodes enforcing BIP110 will begin rejecting non-signaling blocks. Currently, only a small minority of blocks signal support. If that does not change, enforcing nodes will separate themselves from the network onto a minority chain. Miners building on that chain will not be mining Bitcoin. They will be paid in a coin with no exchange liquidity and no settlement infrastructure — rewards that cannot be sold, spent, or used to cover operating costs. For any mining operation, that is a direct financial loss. DMND mines Bitcoin.
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John Giovanni
John Giovanni@john_giovanni_·
@jyn_urso It is. Did you miss the part where they give you a choice of stratum ports?
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kelo
kelo@kelo6102·
@john_giovanni_ @CedYoungelman your transactions are spam for me. they increase my cost of running a node, they also raise the tx fees for me. i dont consent to storing your spam.
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Cedric Youngelman ⚡️
Cedric Youngelman ⚡️@CedYoungelman·
Luke Dashjr on what actually belongs on the Bitcoin blockchain: "Spam is anything the person who's getting it did not solicit, did not consent to. In the context of Bitcoin, that's any data that doesn't involve, in some way, the transfer of coins from one person to another. Everything else is just clogging the network and ruining the experience for everyone else. People who want to share JPEGs can do that. There are websites for it. There are even decentralized ways to do it, like BitTorrent. The only reason to do it the way they're doing it — forcing it on-chain — is to intentionally push it onto people who have not consented and explicitly do not want it." @LukeDashjr on The @_BitcoinMatrix #197
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Mark Harvey
Mark Harvey@thepowerfulHRV·
If you listen carefully, you can hear Bitcoin’s auto-immune system rejecting BIP-110 in real time.
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₿it⚡️Dov
₿it⚡️Dov@bitdov·
@matteopelleg The enforcement happens peer-to-peer at the node level. Node-running is voluntary, you are not forced to run or use Bitcoin.
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John Giovanni
John Giovanni@john_giovanni_·
@kelo6102 @CedYoungelman Transactions history is necessary to create and maintain the network security. Prunable data, the spam, does not. That is why it's different form your claim that all other transactions are spam because they don't benefit you.
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kelo
kelo@kelo6102·
@CedYoungelman what if i dont consent to your transactions on the bitcoin chain. i dont want them and i dont consent to them... well too bad because bitcoin is permissionless and nothing i can do to stop you. even if i dont consent and dont agree with it. thats how bitcoin works
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John Giovanni
John Giovanni@john_giovanni_·
@TotalBuzzKit @janrothen @CedYoungelman One could argue the transaction history makes and sustains the security of the network. But the prunable data, the spam, does not. That is why it's different from your claim that all transactions that aren't mine are also spam.
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☍ TotalɃuzzKit
☍ TotalɃuzzKit@TotalBuzzKit·
@janrothen @CedYoungelman This is the ultimate (idiotic) conclusion of that claim, yes. And also the reason for shrugging him off completely along with the choir of low-brow purists who chant, "I am not paying for them to store their JPEGs on my node".
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John Giovanni
John Giovanni@john_giovanni_·
@matteopelleg If it's 5mb of transactions, okay. But 1 transaction with 5mb in it, no. In that case, the protocol was poorly designed.
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Matteo Pellegrini | Club Orange
if somebody wants do add 5MB of data in a block they should be able to do so let the free market decide
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Adam Livingston
Adam Livingston@AdamBLiv·
A Bitcoin treasury company does not require an mNAV expansion to outperform Bitcoin. Yep, a Bitcoin treasury company can outperform Bitcoin while its CEBE mNAV stays frozen at exactly 1.00x. No multiple expansion. No premium. No Saylor sacrificing a goat during a séance inside a volcano. Let’s make it easy. 100 BTC 100 common shares $100,000 of fixed senior claims No issuance, purchases, or sales At $10,000 BTC, the treasury is worth $1,000,000. Subtract the $100,000 claim and common equity has $900,000 of NAV, or $9,000 per share. That debt is equivalent to 10 BTC, so common shareholders have residual exposure to 90 BTC, or 0.90 BTC per share. Now Bitcoin rises 10x to $100,000. The treasury is worth $10,000,000, but the claim is still only $100,000. Common equity now has $9,900,000 of NAV, or $99,000 per share. The debt now equals only 1 BTC, leaving common shareholders with 99 BTC, or 0.99 BTC per share. Bitcoin went from $10,000 to $100,000. 10x. The stock went from $9,000 to $99,000 at the exact same 1.00x CEBE mNAV. 11x. Why? 10x BTC appreciation × 1.10x growth in CEBE per share = 11x stock appreciation. The valuation multiple contributed nothing. It was legally dead for the entire experiment. Fixed-dollar claims shrink in Bitcoin terms as Bitcoin rises, causing more residual BTC exposure to accrue to each common share. That is amplification. Anyone claiming a treasury company requires mNAV expansion to outperform Bitcoin has been defeated by the numbers 1, 10, 100 and 1,000.
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Ben Justman🍷
Ben Justman🍷@BenJustman·
I don't understand why you'd ever want to make a temporary change to Bitcoin. Anyone got a good steelman for it?
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