naptunael

To me, the odd thing is that it was all cut off from the the Church for such a long time that it strikes me as more of a bespoke historical recreation than a living tradition. Plus being in a different rite just feels like living a different life, so you feel like you have less in common. But if it works for them, I'm happy for them

@naptunael @John_markos_ Yep that's the quote. I suspect it's the "lack of Byzantism" in them that makes them not like it. I'm indifferent myself (no dog in this) but I do find it a bit unfamiliar esp. seeing a Tridentine Orthodox church thing

"During the time of..." Yes, and since he went on to authenticate and promote the least-Roman Western Rite he could find the Western Rite has grown (though it's grown increasingly Roman) and there are established and vibrant WR parishes now. You'll see a lot of suspicion, and I don't personally understand the appeal, but the majority of EOs would at least begrudgingly admit that they're canonically Orthodox

@naptunael @John_markos_ During the time of John of Shanghai there were some who said the Western Rite wasn't Orthodox, hence he famously said something about not needing to be Eastern to be Orthodox or smth sooo...

@tcw_blog1 @John_markos_ idk if that's entirely true (though I'm sure there's someone out there saying it), but there certainly is a lot of healthy suspicion about the way post-schism stuff keeps emerging

@John_markos_ Tbf some EOs won't even recognize Western Rite as truly Orthodox so...

@Maximus_ROCOR @John_markos_ bespoke religion

@John_markos_ What’s better about a disc as compared to a cube

@soupcanarchist @muheediva01 You're not wrong but to be fair, the Brits really cranked that up to 11 when they arrived

@muheediva01 India has a caste system lol

White people are not victims of racism. You can't be a victim of a system you created.

@hazelmotes52 @forsman_josh @Immaculata_City I'll say once again, some EOs these days go too far.

@naptunael @forsman_josh @Immaculata_City But I wouldn't need to read a single word of St. Augustine for the contradiction of the modern Orthodox to be laid bare, because the modern Orthodox who questions St. Augustine's influence is at odds with their very own council.

This is one of the last major controversies I plan to cover in my series of the discussions on the errors of Eastern Orthodoxy. The fact that they are wholly unable to account for the Western Church for centuries leading up to 1054 is a major problem they just want to hand wave away. It's not just the random meddling of a few rogue theologians. The entire West had by the 5th c. received the Augustinian tradition, and you have to either be able to account for this, or you have to admit your Church communed with what you would now call material heretics for half a millennium. The priest here wants to go the hand wave route which is very common in their rather weak apologetics.

@hazelmotes52 @StNickRespecter @forsman_josh @Immaculata_City Calvin is further down the row of dominos

@naptunael @StNickRespecter @forsman_josh @Immaculata_City Because he is removed from the tradition, just like a modern Orthodox who even implies that St. Augustine has problems or leads to error, that person is removed from the tradition and eccumenical tradition at that.

@FinnishZoomer "Don't just stare at your food"

Why dont EOs do adoration

@StNickRespecter @hazelmotes52 @forsman_josh @Immaculata_City Maybe. Or he just saw what he wanted to see.

@naptunael @hazelmotes52 @forsman_josh @Immaculata_City LMAO Calvin was obviously lying, he rejected vast swathes of St Augustine's teachings. He called purgatory a deadly fiction of Satan but St Augustine taught it clearly and repeatedly.

@hazelmotes52 @forsman_josh @Immaculata_City Reading *is* interpretation. But some EO do go too far, as I said.

@naptunael @forsman_josh @Immaculata_City Interpretation is a whole other issue. The fifth council says the writing of St. Augustine are praiseworthy, some modern day Orthodox say reading St. Augustine lead the west into error. This is the contradiction.

One could have an opinion that's well short of heretical, but that someone else could take and run with. And if someone writes a lot, it could potentially make it more difficult to fully understand that person's context. (Speaking in generalities here--I don't like the St. Augustine hate you see from some EOs)

@naptunael @forsman_josh @Immaculata_City Why mention St. Augustine at all when discussing the theological failings of the west, if St. Augustines theology has no unique impact on later western thought. The implicite premise is that there is novel thought in St. Augustine that at the least leads people into heresy.

Most EO priests seem to get nothing more than a cursory education on the RCC entirely based on historical documents rather than modern practice. His is that + living in the most Catholic city in the US and dealing with the experiences of the people coming to him to convert (which is always going to highlight the abosolute worst catechesis and practice, but it can reflect on-the-ground realities more than the CCC)

Everyone is suddenly irritated (maybe even irate) with Fr. Stephen De Young. Guys, I have been listening to Lord of Spirits for years and let me tell you, hardly an episode goes by that I don't roll my eyes hard whenever he mentions Catholics. However, he is an incredibly insightful scholar and I have learned so much from him. I'm not going to defend this particular clip, but I hate call in shows anyway, so maybe we should stop doing them lol

@hayesstw @AaronIrber She may have been referring to Tucker...?

@AaronIrber I listened to a podcast where he was talking about Nephilim, and shared it on Facebook so I could listen to it later, My daughter asked me why I was giving publicity to that fascist. I didn't hear anything fascist about the podcast, he said things I've been saying for 60 years.

@hazelmotes52 @forsman_josh @Immaculata_City That's a claim you can make, sure, but I don't see why it's an absolutely necessary condition.

@naptunael @forsman_josh @Immaculata_City Fifth council that extolled St. Augustine. So even if the charge isn't blatant heresy, it must be that his Triadology was so manifestly in error that it should be impossible for a council 100 years after his death to praise his writing on the true faith.

I didn't catch anyone here saying that St. Augustine taught heresy (though perhaps I missed it). It seems to me the critique is of some who came after St. Augustine and developed their theology on their understanding of some of his writing (ie "Augustinian thought" as opposed to the saint himself).

@naptunael @forsman_josh @Immaculata_City These Sts and their writings aren't Holy Writ; they aren't infallible in their writings about the true faith. But they were extolled by the council as exemplars of the true faith and if their writings contained heresy or its stink, there is no way the Holy Ghost could allow this.

I'm not informed enough to say. Is this saying that everything each saint wrote is fully correct Orthodox doctrine, or specifically their writings aligned with "the true faith" as understood by the council? Did none of these saints disagree on any point? How much of each saint's writings were available in Greek before then, or in Latin?

@naptunael @forsman_josh @Immaculata_City Why would the fifth Eccumenical Council say this about St. Augustine, over 100 years after his death, and other western fathers if they didn't know what was going on?

@epke82 @Tricknologist_ @ThePolemikOne Are words used the exact same way in different times, in different places, different cultures, different languages, in different situations and different conversations?

@Tricknologist_ @ThePolemikOne Words have meaning, people ascribe an intented meaning to words. Again, words are not vague, mysterious and barren symbols that gain their semantic value only from church praxis. Words are not hopefully meaningless, like Ortho bros genernally also like to accuse the bible to be

I finally watched this whole thing and to me, it came down to this: Ortlund rests his entire argument on his interpretations of Jerusalem 1672 (and a few other writings) with "Here is what they said". Pagueau's main response is: "Within the broad spectrum of the Church as a whole, across time, here is what they both say and do in actual praxis" Then when it comes time for Pageau to interrogate Protestant views to push back a bit.. the same thing happens. Pagueau points to the praxis of Protestants, broadly speaking, with the largest groups: - Sending missionaries to Orthodox lands - Not believing Catholics or Orthodox are "saved" - Believing the sacraments are merely symbolic - Believing in exclusivity claims of salvation Ortlund rebuts with the idea of: That may be what they do, but look at the actual Protestant reformers and what they *wrote*. This hinges on a massive worldview difference and brings for the main question: What really matters in determining the actual beliefs of a person or group: Words or Actions?

@no2monkeypox @MartelMaccabeus ha

@naptunael @MartelMaccabeus Am I allowed to read that, or should I ask some bishop what the takeaways are?

I would comment, but I can't. "Stop causing trouble. Stop trying to cause factions in the Church. That's a sin. That's a grievous sin. Okay? Just stop." He says that causing trouble and trying to cause factions in the Church is a sin. That is evident by simply listening. As for the rest, he says not to try to teach the fathers when you don't actually know what they are saying. Besides, most of writings of most church fathers were translated into English by Protestants (some by Roman Catholics). Most often when the church fathers are quote-mined by Orthodox people to teach blasphemous Protestant doctrines, people are trusting that the Protestant translators have a genuine understanding of Greek and that they don't read the fathers through a Protestant bias that colors how they translate the text. So Fr. Stephen is correct. The Protestantizers (usually called the "Latinizers") within the Orthodox Church would do well to take 10 or so years off from teaching anything to immerse yourselves in the liturgical life of the Church and learn what Orthodoxy actually is.

@no2monkeypox @MartelMaccabeus Supposedly this is being covered in the book he's currently working on, we'll see

@MartelMaccabeus The traditional scholar's answer to mistranslated primary texts is to offer better readings and illustrate the mistranslation. If SDY is unable/unwilling to do that, it's either an indication of a personality defect or a discomfort with the idea of plain language being legible

@Almost_Sly_Bry @briankeepsworth Honestly I think he was mostly trying to make a point about a very noisy corner of "Orthodox" twitter that teaches their own understandings as dogma and deride clergy as non-Christian for not agreeing. Basically about people trying to create factions w/I the Church

@briankeepsworth I like De Young. I think I understand what he's trying to say but he didn't say it well. And it's disappointing

If this was a Catholic priest talking to just about anybody, I would be thoroughly embarrassed for our side. You join a platform that is meant to debate & then refuse to debate on the grounds that your interlocuter is of too low a standing for you. This is anti-Christ.