John Dickson

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John Dickson

John Dickson

@johnpauldickson

Professor, Wheaton College (IL). PhD, Ancient History. Presenter Undeceptions & First Hymn. Far from home. 🇦🇺 All my links: https://t.co/IXilWREuTz

Wheaton, Illinois. Katılım Temmuz 2009
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John Dickson
John Dickson@johnpauldickson·
I teach a class here at @WheatonCollege on the history of Christianity, focused on the first thousand years. One thought haunts me. We are right to look with shock and disappointment at the way medieval Christians accepted violence as a norm. 1/
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John Dickson
John Dickson@johnpauldickson·
Why some of us can rejoice in women “pastors” even if we pretty much disagree with the idea. First, take a less fraught example: baptism. Suppose you’re 80% convinced the Bible endorses only believer’s baptism, not infant baptism. That still means you think there’s a half-decent chance you could be wrong. Since this is a matter of church order rather than morality, perhaps that possibility should be enough to let you attend the baptism of your friends’ infant child and even find some joy in it. After all, there’s a meaningful chance this practice is biblical, as many thoughtful, biblically serious Christians believe. Likewise, suppose you’re 80% convinced the Bible restricts women from doing pastor-like things. That still means you think there’s a half-decent chance you could be wrong. Since this too is a matter of church order rather than morality, perhaps that possibility should be enough to let you sit under the preaching and ministry of a gifted woman and maybe even find some blessing in it. After all, there’s a meaningful chance this too is biblical, as many thoughtful, biblically serious Christians believe. At least, that’s how I’ve come to think about it.
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John Dickson
John Dickson@johnpauldickson·
@ReformedBoromir Matters of church order don’t fall into the category of sin-righteous. It’s more like believer’s baptism v infant baptism.
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Ethan M
Ethan M@ReformedBoromir·
@johnpauldickson Two things here 1) I am actually 100% convinced 2) Even if I were only 80% sure, I would still see it as a sinful act, so I should not subject myself to participating in it. Right? Or is it that if we're not 100% sure on something being a sin we should still participate?
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John Dickson
John Dickson@johnpauldickson·
@staleyexpress As I say, we likely have a similar view. I just hold it with less stridency because I’m aware of good faith arguments in the opposite direction.
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Chris Staley
Chris Staley@staleyexpress·
Well, the first thing I noticed besides that I disagree is that he doesn’t use any scripture to back up what he’s saying He simply tries to rationalize the word of God, which In of itself is a sin We don’t rationalize a way to make it OK for people to do things outside of obedience of faith to God That’s my take. There’s a reason why women are excluded for being pastors One reason is because liberal people will try to rationalize it And the other reason is kind of obvious The Bible is clear elsewhere In Amos the cows of Bashan oppress the poor and demand drinks from their lords showing women in dominance and luxury amid moral decay before judgment. In Micah the heads and princes lead the people astray with corruption and oppression marking societal inversion and coming ruin. In Nahum your people in the midst of thee are women the gates open to enemies signaling effeminate weakness and the downfall of a once mighty society under divine wrath. McGee taught these as signs of rejecting Gods order leading to collapse.
John Dickson@johnpauldickson

Why some of us can rejoice in women “pastors” even if we pretty much disagree with the idea. First, take a less fraught example: baptism. Suppose you’re 80% convinced the Bible endorses only believer’s baptism, not infant baptism. That still means you think there’s a half-decent chance you could be wrong. Since this is a matter of church order rather than morality, perhaps that possibility should be enough to let you attend the baptism of your friends’ infant child and even find some joy in it. After all, there’s a meaningful chance this practice is biblical, as many thoughtful, biblically serious Christians believe. Likewise, suppose you’re 80% convinced the Bible restricts women from doing pastor-like things. That still means you think there’s a half-decent chance you could be wrong. Since this too is a matter of church order rather than morality, perhaps that possibility should be enough to let you sit under the preaching and ministry of a gifted woman and maybe even find some blessing in it. After all, there’s a meaningful chance this too is biblical, as many thoughtful, biblically serious Christians believe. At least, that’s how I’ve come to think about it.

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Maximal Maximus
Maximal Maximus@secondiusacct·
@johnpauldickson God's commands about church order are every bit as moral as Leviticus and the Sermon on the Mount. Teachers (in pulpits and classrooms) will be held to a higher standard of accountability for promoting the violation of God's commands, John. How far Wheaton has fallen.
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John Dickson
John Dickson@johnpauldickson·
@BaggettJoe1971 Apart from being a silly statement, you’ve got your maths back to front.
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Joe Baggett
Joe Baggett@BaggettJoe1971·
@johnpauldickson If you're 80% convinced chick preachers are biblical you are not a Christian
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Tbonius maximus
Tbonius maximus@cothran_tom·
@johnpauldickson This is just your sad version of "Did God really say?" that Satan used. Some things are debatable, but this ain't one of 'em. There are definitely absolutes in the Bible. and the fact that you refuse correction is a pretty good indicator that God does not know you.
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John Dickson
John Dickson@johnpauldickson·
@cothran_tom Glad to hear you’re not 100 on everything. Given the mix of evidence, and the seriousness of alternative readings of 1 Tim 2, it seems more responsible to be less than 100% on women pastors, or at least to relegate it to a matter of second order.
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Tbonius maximus
Tbonius maximus@cothran_tom·
@johnpauldickson Not 100 on everything - but when Paul says "I DO NOT PERMIT...", and there is not an "unless" in there somewhere, I'm 100% that God does not allow it. Your position is exactly how "progressive" slides towards gay marriage and transgender pastors start.
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John Dickson
John Dickson@johnpauldickson·
@ajfworship @AmericnChristn And, as many notable experts have pointed out, there's a decent chance Paul actually refers to women deacons within 1 Tim 3 itself (v.11).
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Andrew James Finden
Andrew James Finden@ajfworship·
@AmericnChristn @johnpauldickson Or, the phrase (paralleled in 1 Tim 5:9) is not about restricting gender, or requiring someone to be married, but a turn of phrase referring to marital faithfulness, and the use of the term deacon for Phoebe is consistent.
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John Dickson
John Dickson@johnpauldickson·
@cothran_tom This reflection obviously won't chime with your approach. Presumably, there are some matters of church order about which you are only 80% convinced. Yes? Or are you a 100%-er on everything?
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Tbonius maximus
Tbonius maximus@cothran_tom·
@johnpauldickson This is stupid, and annoyingly compromising. We are at 100%. Paul did not leave a 20% chance that it's OK. You should repent of this nonsense.
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John Dickson
John Dickson@johnpauldickson·
@Maeve0330 But I trust you acknowledge that many, many Christians deeply disagree. And I trust you can show them grace and respect, regardless.
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Paul Smith
Paul Smith@PaulSmi11238878·
@johnpauldickson I apply this the other way on this particular issue, where I can participate in complementarian settings without thinking everyone is a misogynist. But unfortunately you and I are decisively in the minority with this perspective
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Aidan Corley
Aidan Corley@aidan_corley·
@johnpauldickson I’m sure the pushback to this is that they are 100%, not 80% sure. But if you’ve studied all the issues involved, that feels hard to maintain. 1 Tim 2 has so many exegetical complications, and Junia, Phoebe, Priscilla, etc. are certainly not insignificant, even if not conclusive.
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DGSpill
DGSpill@DgSpill·
@mattnightingale @johnpauldickson I trust the Scriptures more than I trust you. I trust my ability to read the languages, understand the historical context, and appreciate the historical interpretation of God’s revelation for the last several thousand years as opposed to the last fifteen minutes.
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Matt Nightingale is trying to keep the faith.
I hope that Sam Alberry finds the freedom to be who he is and love who he loves, free from the shame and fear of homophobic evangelical theology and culture. 🙏🏼❤️🏳️‍🌈
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𝙹𝚊𝚛𝚎𝚍 𝙲. 𝙱𝚞𝚛𝚝 🌎
This sounds reasonable. But SBC pastors have been trained to believe “the Bible is clear on this issue.” For many, it’s not 80%, but 100% certainty with no room for disagreement (“compromise”). Anyone who disagrees has rejected biblical inerrancy/authority and therefore is in sin
John Dickson@johnpauldickson

Why some of us can rejoice in women “pastors” even if we pretty much disagree with the idea. First, take a less fraught example: baptism. Suppose you’re 80% convinced the Bible endorses only believer’s baptism, not infant baptism. That still means you think there’s a half-decent chance you could be wrong. Since this is a matter of church order rather than morality, perhaps that possibility should be enough to let you attend the baptism of your friends’ infant child and even find some joy in it. After all, there’s a meaningful chance this practice is biblical, as many thoughtful, biblically serious Christians believe. Likewise, suppose you’re 80% convinced the Bible restricts women from doing pastor-like things. That still means you think there’s a half-decent chance you could be wrong. Since this too is a matter of church order rather than morality, perhaps that possibility should be enough to let you sit under the preaching and ministry of a gifted woman and maybe even find some blessing in it. After all, there’s a meaningful chance this too is biblical, as many thoughtful, biblically serious Christians believe. At least, that’s how I’ve come to think about it.

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John Dickson
John Dickson@johnpauldickson·
@Exodus15_11 That begs the question. On many things, it would be inappropriate to waver. On other things, it would be wrong not to remain generously open to disagreement.
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John Dickson
John Dickson@johnpauldickson·
@Cldddy Are there no biblical issues you are 80% convinced of, where there is fair-minded reason for doubt? Gifts of the Spirit? Baptism? Sabbath keeping? Anything?
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Matthew Clagg
Matthew Clagg@Cldddy·
@johnpauldickson That margin in not trusting Gods Word and interjecting our thoughts is putting our wisdom above Gods and leads to pride flags draped over the altar.
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John Dickson
John Dickson@johnpauldickson·
@Cldddy Yep. But when you know all the issues, it’s hard not to leave a small margin for doubt.
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Matthew Clagg
Matthew Clagg@Cldddy·
@johnpauldickson Or you know, the Bible and not our opinion. 1 Timothy 2:12 (NASB) But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.
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