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“The only hope of salvation from the delusions and heresies, the innovations and traps of the wicked people and of the devil is prayer, repentance, and humility.” St. Joseph the Hesychast #30DaysofHumility
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OrthoDad
937 posts
The top of the soap container is sealed. This is what we've come to.
Most of these problems are fairly easy to solve, but we refuse to have honest discussions about the causes and the solutions. Consequently, extremists will provide answers and guide policies.
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@ChristandGuitar Martin Luther thought he exorcized demons every time he took a shit.
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Both Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox claim to be the "one true Church" with apostolic succession on their side. Both ask: "Would the Holy Spirit allow the Church to fall into error for 1500 years?"
My answer: Yeah, I think He would - Just the same as Israel was allowed to fall into error time and time again.
The fact that the 2 split in 1054 and both claim exclusive fidelity to the apostles means, logically, at least one of them has been wrong for nearly 1,000 years. They can't both be right.
This should motivate Protestants to dig into Scripture and church history. One (or both) of these institutions has error on important points. Scripture, being God's Word, is our anchor for everything.
This is not the strawman of "every Christian for 1500 years went to hell before Martin Luther came along." Christ has always saved His people by grace through faith - even when the visible institutions went off the rails.
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@FrCyril_D @rickbrennanjr Forgive, but Sola S seems to me like a tool to confuse and control people. It certainly doesn’t accord with how texts transmit meaning.
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@scottseraph @rickbrennanjr The greatest irony of all is the sola scriptura methodology is an actual example of a tradition of men that contradicts the Apostolic faith (and the Scriptures).
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Of course. If we have no written record, we have no firm basis for historical claims. We may speculate, but speculation is not evidence.
The issue is not whether some practices may have existed before they were recorded. The issue is whether they can be shown to be apostolic.
If these traditions and worship practices were necessary for the faith and practice of the church, why did the Holy Spirit leave them without reliable first- or early second-century testimony?
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@FrCyril_D @rickbrennanjr Many of these arguments seem to be reductionist. Like “you can’t have practices that have been found to produce holiness because we can’t find them in the Bible.”
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@rickbrennanjr @scottseraph Well, if the Orthodox Church has preserved the fullness of the Apostolic faith, then the historical documents you require are unnecessary.
I repeat, read the life of any modern miracle working Orthodox saint and you will see we have the fullness.
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@rickbrennanjr @FrCyril_D Thank you for that clarification. It’s interesting to me because I think as moderns we have lost the tools to build collective memory. So we think writing is the only way to preserve memory.
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@rickbrennanjr @FrCyril_D By “practices that began to emerge in the second century” do you mean practices for which a written record began to emerge?
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I know church history very well, thank you.
What you are referring to were not apostolic practices, but practices that began emerging in the mid-second century and became increasingly common by the fourth century. There is not one iota of evidence that they were taught by the apostles or practiced universally in the first or early second century.
Catholic theology would be better served by staying close to the historical record rather than appealing to later traditions that retrospectively identify developing practices as apostolic truth. Later writers sometimes preserved valuable historical memory, but they also sometimes attributed later developments to the apostolic age without sufficient evidence.
Peter being the first bishop of Rome is a good example. I was taught that in catechism as settled fact. I now understand that this claim rests on later tradition, not on clear first-century evidence.
Peter’s presence and martyrdom in Rome is historically credible. But the later claim that he served as Rome’s first bishop is another matter entirely.
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@FrCyril_D It’s amazing that it took three hundred years for someone to write down an important instruction given by an apostle. Think about that. Does it make sense to you?
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@FrCyril_D @rickbrennanjr It’s interesting to think about EO practices as an exercise in building collective memory before literacy was widespread.
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@rickbrennanjr Without a normative authority you are left with just each person deciding the truth. If all the historic churches have all fallen into error, then true church does not exist.
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@kangaroos991 @NobelPrize Imagine being nominated for a peace prize for refusing peace for several years. It's hilarious that you people can't see the hypocrisy.
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GREAT nomination & well deserved too!
The 'draft dodger' currently in the Oval
Office probably won't be pleased with
Zelensky's @NobelPrize nomination? 🤷♀️
So, please do NOT share, got it? 😉
Wave a 🇺🇦 flag if you stand with Ukraine
and Zelensky! 🙏 🇺🇦 #SlavaUkraine 🇺🇦
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@KingMic92357513 @realmikolson @Fr_RonPG Imagine believing that after death you couldn’t talk to your loved ones, you couldn’t ask them for any help, you were just cut off. Then imagine being I. Heaven with God and all you could do is watch your loved ones; you couldn’t talk to God about them. What does that sound like
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@realmikolson Sorry. But no. @Fr_RonPG spoke in this. So I'll refer you to him and the video (see his comment on this post.)
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There is only one church, but that one body of the Lord, is the people of God, responding to the reality of the Resurrection, thus it is not synonymous with any one institution - the RCC has many institutions for example, as do the Orthodox churches, so therefore 'The One holy Catholic and Apostolic' can not be tied to an institution, but all of its institutions are legitimately part of this body.
Father V@father_rmv
“Christ can have only one body—therefore, there cannot be many churches. Any church founded this morning or yesterday afternoon, or a hundred years ago is too remote from Pentecost to be Christ’s body.” (Venerable Fulton J. Sheen)
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@IchimokuSatoshi @btbsoco Now notice Jesus didn’t say “where two or three Catholics or where two or three orthodox are gathered”
He was simply referring to believers gathered in His name.
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@IchimokuSatoshi Sometimes I think the difference between Protestant and EO is something like:
P = modern biblical commentaries only;
EO = Othodox biblical commentaries mostly.
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Your “red flag” only exists because you presuppose the Fathers were inadequate stewards of the apostolic faith. But why? You still trust men like Luther, modern pastors, or your own interpretation despite them living 1500+ years after the apostles.
Meanwhile, some of the earliest Fathers were disciples of the apostles themselves, and they affirm doctrines you reject.
Also, Acts 10 does not prove your point. Cornelius receiving the Holy Spirit before baptism was an extraordinary event showing that Gentiles were being accepted by God. Peter’s response was not, “baptism is unnecessary now.”
Peter immediately commanded water baptism afterward.
So the text actually works against your conclusion. God giving the Spirit before baptism in an exceptional case does not abolish baptism any more than Jesus being sinless abolished His own baptism.
The apostles still treated baptism as necessary and normative.
🎸 Matt 🎸@ChristandGuitar
I've been following David Wood's dive into Eastern Orthodoxy and just finished watching his video with Orthodox Ethos. I have to be honest: It was extremely unconvincing as a positive case for EO. The constant appeal to church fathers over Scripture was a huge red flag. The main argument boiled down to: "This is how Christianity has always been, God wouldn't abandon His church, we're right, so join our church." The most interesting part was about Christians outside the church. OE argued that those outside of EO may "follow" Christ in a sense, but do not have Christ in them for His healing. This clashes with Acts 10: Acts 10:44-45, 47-48a While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. "Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. These Gentiles were filled with the Holy Spirit after simply hearing and believing the Gospel - *before* baptism. This makes it tough to argue that baptism is required for salvation, let alone for God's spirit to indwell someone. This also undermines EO's claim of "this is what the Church has always taught."
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@scottseraph Ive no idea. They are Theologically schizophrenic.
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This is incredibly sad. Genuinely.
Pleade just come home to Orthodoxy.
Rorik Wanka@RorikWanka
So here's my situation: - We had a wedding 23 years ago in the Episcopal Church. - I was Catholic, she was not - Was assured at the time that the marriage would be "valid, yet irregular" - She converted to Catholicism 12 years ago - No one cared or found a problem at Catholic Churches we attended with our marriage which produced four children - Move to a traditional Church - Marriage found to be invalid - Ordered to cease marital relations until marriage can be convalidated. Am I allowed to kiss my long-term live-in girlfriend?
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@Alex_Ortodoxie @JPuncut He prolly shouldn’t drink and social media.
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Unacceptable. If you keep calling the Orthobros “dangerous,” some people will take you seriously. Evangelical apologists desperately need more oversight besides this self-popery.
Each of them does what is right in their own eyes.
Also, how many are feds? Be honest!
Jay Dyer@JayDyer
Psycho prots apparently want me unalived
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Everyone please block this account. He’s not spreading bad theology as far as I can tell, but he is really dumb and that’s probably just as bad
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@ChristandGuitar Assuming all scripture is infallible, you still have to contend with the reader who is most certainly fallible. Sola Scriptura is simply not really a thing.
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I've been following David Wood's dive into Eastern Orthodoxy and just finished watching his video with Orthodox Ethos.
I have to be honest: It was extremely unconvincing as a positive case for EO. The constant appeal to church fathers over Scripture was a huge red flag.
The main argument boiled down to: "This is how Christianity has always been, God wouldn't abandon His church, we're right, so join our church."
The most interesting part was about Christians outside the church. OE argued that those outside of EO may "follow" Christ in a sense, but do not have Christ in them for His healing.
This clashes with Acts 10:
Acts 10:44-45, 47-48a
While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles.
"Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?” And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
These Gentiles were filled with the Holy Spirit after simply hearing and believing the Gospel - *before* baptism.
This makes it tough to argue that baptism is required for salvation, let alone for God's spirit to indwell someone. This also undermines EO's claim of "this is what the Church has always taught."
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@Alex_Ortodoxie The way we talked about Roman Catholics in my evangelical days was … not good. (We didn’t know what EO was.) As EO I’ve noticed the spill-over many times.
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So you’re taking revenge on me for something I didn’t do and didn’t even know about? 😵💫😵💫😵💫
These people hate Holy Orthodoxy. They hate it SO much. It makes them seethe, lash out, and gnash their teeth. They’re tortured souls. Pray for them 🙏🙏🙏
JP@JPuncut
@MichaelS1453 @Alex_Ortodoxie I'm not Christian for doing the same thing they do to us? 😂
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